Friday, May 10, 2013

The Libertarian Liberal?

Tommy over at MPP discusses the interesting disclosure statement he has at the bottom of his emails.  MPP TwoPutt Preview  I left some comments and questions and received no response, so I thought I would see if anyone here has an opinion / answer.
"So Tommy, since Obama has been in power for 4+ years and things like this are still in force. Is it our new reality and the price we pay for a safe country? Or is there some conspiracy taking place? Thoughts?

Since I really have nothing to hide, I am pretty much okay with having computers search my correspondence for suspicious words, topics, contacts, etc. Of course, we may want to stock some more guns downstairs in case the government becomes too power hungry. Oops, I thought I was on a far right blog for a moment.

Man, I love that Nolan diagram. The idea of a Liberal Libertarian seems counter intuitive too me, since Liberals usually want government involvement in our lives and wallets. But it does seem to fit in the top left edge of the diagram."


Anonymous said...

That chart makes no sense to me, at all. Looks like it was drawn by a wild-eyed liberal at best.

J. Ewing

John said...

Do you like any of these better?

Nolan 2
Nolan 3
Nolan 5
Nolan 6 (sort of)
Nolan 7
Nolan 8
Nolan 9
Nolan 10

Anonymous said...

#2 is considerably more simplistic, but I like it far better than any of the rest. My big objection to Tommy's was that the opposite of "economic liberty" was "economic security." That's straight out of Marx. Plus, any chart that puts Republicans next to Nazis is warped beyond usefulness at best.


John said...

That was actually just an example I grabbed at random to explain that Libertarians and Liberals are not mutually exclusive per the diagram.

Though I have a hard time envisioning a Progressive Libertarian. I mean the Progressive wants big Government to ensure wealth is transferred, regulations are created and enforced, and to ensure the foolish, lazy and/or unlucky get free food, free housing, free healthcare, free education, etc... (ok.. not free since it is paid for by the smart, diligent and or lucky folks)

So how can someone who wants that much government intervention in our personal lives be concerned that the NSA is scanning their email? It seems a bit inconsistent.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps it helps to understand that the modern liberal believes whatever he is saying at the moment, regardless of what might be said plus or minus five minutes from now. There is no consistency! Neither is there wrong and right, reason or rationale. And they fiddle with the language so a "liberal" becomes a "progressive."

The other thing that drives modern liberals, just to square the circle of your diagram, is their unshakeable but irrational belief that they are morally and intellectually superior to the rest of us and that THEY are thereby entitled to tell the rest of us how to live-- for our own good, of course. Any objection to their beneficent rule is only because you are too stupid or corrupt to appreciate their superiority, sort of a self-insulating philosophy. Any chart which attempts to put a rational classification on such irrational thought is by its nature doomed, IMHO. Now, if you charted the ACTUAL results of policy, rather than intent, it might be doable.

J. Ewing

John said...

Are you sure you weren't just describing a hard core Conservative in that second paragraph? As I have said before, the far right and far left seem very similar to me. They always know better than everyone else and insist the government should enforce their will.

Beyond that, what do folks think of "Big Brother" monitoring all of our daily communications in order to keep us safe. Okay or not so much so... Can we afford to repeal the laws? Can we afford not to?

Wiki Patriot Act

Anonymous said...

Hmmm. It is true that I have often said something to the effect that "I'm so far right that I'm left." I see the political spectrum as something of a circle, with a small "gap" at the top where hard right turns to hard left. There SHOULD be a large gap, then, at the bottom, because IMHO moderates are simply people who can't make up their minds, and think that a virtue. If you come down on the left side of one issue and the right side of another, that's actual thinking and I don't find that inconsistent, either, since on some issues it's hard to categorize which side is which. Your Patriot Act is a good example.

But that's where I find the big difference. IN GENERAL I believe liberals do NOT think things through; conservatives do. Liberals argue; conservatives debate. Liberals spout talking points, bluster, pontificate, use tu quoque and emotional blackmail; conservatives try to get by with facts and logic. Conservatives think and liberals FEEL. "I feel like everyone should have good quality health care" is a classic liberal line. The conservative will ask who pays for this quality health care, realizing that somehow, someone must.

And that is the distinction you miss when you say the hard left and hard right are "the same" in wanting to use government to enforce their agenda. Liberals MUST use the force of government because free people and free economics would not otherwise follow their impractical ideas. Conservatives tend to want LESS government, and to allow free people and free markets to solve most problems. You of course refer to things like "abortion rights," which conservatives are generally against, but for a REASON-- namely, that abortion is harmful to living things. There can be no right to do that which is wrong, unless you FEEL there should be.

J. Ewing

Laurie said...

Soon computers used to spy on us may be the least of our worries. Here is an off topic link that I found fascinating:

Welcome, Robot Overlords. Please Don't Fire Us?