What you need to know about Somali money transfers and 'mysterious bags full of cash' flying out of MSP airport By Ibrahim Hirsi
Well I know it won't surprise you, but my comments and questions regarding this piece did not show up at MinnPost... Now I understand that Ibrahim is interested in helping us understand Hawalas and why they are a necessary money transfer method. He wants to put the best possible spin on a kind of sketchy situation. I get it and it makes sense. My comment / questions went something like this since I neglected to copy it before submitting it.
Well I know it won't surprise you, but my comments and questions regarding this piece did not show up at MinnPost... Now I understand that Ibrahim is interested in helping us understand Hawalas and why they are a necessary money transfer method. He wants to put the best possible spin on a kind of sketchy situation. I get it and it makes sense. My comment / questions went something like this since I neglected to copy it before submitting it.
"I know very little about the Somali culture, however if you want to be candid and help us truly understand it. I think you need to also address the following questions. As to my perspective, please remember that I am a big proponent of parents only having the number of children that they can financially support themselves and raise well.
- Is there something about Somali culture / beliefs that would help parents rationalize being complicit in this kind of fraud? From what I understand based on my years of being close to a daycare business, the parents have to sign off on lots of forms and especially if the government is paying the bills. It is unlikely that the centers could pull this off on their own.
- Since these folks are supposedly poor and needing assistance, what are their views on birth control and bearing only the number of children they can afford to raise on their incomes?"
A couple of other thoughts occurred to me as I have written:
- If these folks are "poor" and receiving government benefits to help their children. Why is a LOT of CASH going to Somalia?
- Does this mean that we are giving our other "poor" citizens too much financial assistance?
- Should the US Tax Payers really be making "welfare payments" to folks who live in Somalia?
Thoughts?
31 comments:
It may seem odd to you, but I think you could use some "cultural sensitivity." What I know of their culture doesn't excuse what is going on, but it would not, I think, seem immoral to them. And the only people "hurt" here, IMHO, are the taxpayers, and possibly legitimate childcare providers who might have used the funding properly.
Jerry,
Let's see how many issues there are here:
- people having more children than they can afford
- people passing that extra cost on to the tax payers
- people committing fraud for personal gain
- legal potential recipients not receiving daycare assistance because of ill used funds
- tax payers paying for investigations, courts, etc
As for cultural sensitivity, I am more of a law and order kind of guy. If you come to our country, please feel free to wear what you wish, speak any language you wish, celebrate your holidays, etc. But you must conform with our laws and strive to be financially independent.
.. more kids than they can afford. That's cultural bias
.. passing that cost to the taxpayers. That's leftist nonsense at work. Without Such programs there would be no cost at all.
.. committing fraud for personal gain. Personal? And is it fraud if the government offers it to you without question? Isn't it free money?
.. legal potential recipients… That is simply leftists not funding adequately the program they desire, and then not following through with making sure the funds are properly used.
.. Taxpayers paying for courts… Again, that is a result of setting up government programs with inadequate controls that then get abused and are only exposed by independent watchdogs. And often the leftists try to sweep the whole thing under the rug!
One could almost imagine these Somalis as the innocent victims of a government feel-good welfare scheme.
As is often the case. I think we will need to agree to disagree.
I think of the customer who wrote bad checks and lied brazenly to my wife. In your view it seems she would be the "villain". Thankfully the courts see things differently and he got to spend some quality time in prison. Maybe he met some of these Somali fraudsters...
A year or 2 ago someone rang up an extra ~$10,000 in charges on my credit card... I bet you think that Citibank is the fault of that individuals bad illegal actions.
When do you want to hold criminals accountable?
I am all in favor of holding criminals accountable. But when the government offers somebody free money, Not enough questions asked, and they take it, where is the criminality? Government stupidity, perhaps, that might rise to the level of criminal stupidity, were there such a thing.
All government programs and money comes with rules and expectations.
When the recipient lies or commits fraud, the blame rests with them.
Now if you want to increase government spending on verification and auditing...
Personally I would rather severely punish the people who are caught in their lie / fraud.
In your view, if someone is caught shop lifting... Is it the store's fault? I mean they put all that product out for the taking and sometimes shop lifters succeed.
Let's punish all those store owners because there are thieves and liars in our society... :-) Where do you get this stuff?
Interesting. Somebody who has their gun stolen is irresponsible and must be punished. Yet a merchant who has something shoplifted is the aggrieved party, not complicit in the crime. where do you get this double standard?
Yes, one supposes that government programs come with rules and expectations. Are they adequate? Are there checks made to ensure that the rules are being followed and expectations met ? At least in this case, there obviously were none. Were the rules written such that "we will give you so much money per student enrolled"? Or did it actually say the student must spend X hours per day or per week at the facility? I have a suspicion that this whole thing will be swept under the rug as quickly as possible and nobody will be prosecuted, simply because it cannot be proven that Any official rules were violated. I would not even bet that these "fraudulent" payments would be stopped. It might make the government look bad.
Please remember that it is the store and credit card company who bear the cost of fraud.
And the liar / person committing fraud if they are caught.
Fortunately I just had to bear some inconvenience, no cost.
The same as I recommend in this case.
As for rules...
Thank you for that link! It says just what I thought it said, which is that the provider must fill out some paperwork, and each family must fill out some paperwork, and then the State will send everybody a check. No fraud, just a stupid, costly, uncontrolled, government "welfare" program.
Of course someone is committing fraud...
Otherwise people would not be being sent to jail...
When one signs a form, contract, agreement, etc.
They are the one responsible.
Why do you fight the obvious so hard?
Do you think people should be allowed to violate their agreements, lie on forms, etc?
If someone writes you a check and it bounces?
Are you okay with that?
IS somebody going to jail? From your report I don't see where anybody violated any law or contractual obligation. The intent of the law, perhaps, but since there was no oversight, you cannot even fault these Somalis for that. You can't even say "theft of government services" because the money was freely handed out.
Again, somebody offers you free money. Do you take it? Remember the old panhandlers who asked for a dollar to get a meal, but didn't spend it on a meal? Any prosecutions you know of, and on what basis?
Do you really lie on forms and sign them to get money?
You seemed more law abiding than that...
This is round 2 of the investigations, see here for some coverage of round 1. Maybe we should stop supporting Somali day cares...
okay, so at least one operator has pled guilty to fraud, and other charges are pending. That answers my question. But as the "scam" was originally described-- having parents sign up their children to get the benefit but then not actually providing the daycare promised – it seems like a bad case of government mismanagement of a welfare program. That isn't very surprising and is only a minor moral failing on the part of the participants – Somali or otherwise.
If you say so... Here is a related link.
It is amazing that you see intentionally submitting inaccurate forms to obtain additional funds as only a "minor moral failing". I am happy I don't do business with you. :-)
Amazing that you so quickly generalize and stigmatize a whole class of people for the true misdeeds of a few. If the day care operator claims to be serving 100 kids and is only serving 20, that is fraud. If 50 parents sign up for government assistance with no requirement to actually use the money for what is intended, then who if anyone is committing criminal fraud? Knowing how the Somali community is tight with families and believes they are allowed to lie for advantage, I am more concerned with the lack of government oversight.
Please remember what I said and asked...
"I know very little about the Somali culture, however if you want to be candid and help us truly understand it. I think you need to also address the following questions. As to my perspective, please remember that I am a big proponent of parents only having the number of children that they can financially support themselves and raise well.
•Is there something about Somali culture / beliefs that would help parents rationalize being complicit in this kind of fraud? From what I understand based on my years of being close to a daycare business, the parents have to sign off on lots of forms and especially if the government is paying the bills. It is unlikely that the centers could pull this off on their own.
•Since these folks are supposedly poor and needing assistance, what are their views on birth control and bearing only the number of children they can afford to raise on their incomes?"
It was also reported that some Somali parents were getting kick backs from the daycare owners to help encourage them to participate in the fraud.
As I said. I am happy I am not in business with you if are in essence okay with this behavior.
So if these folks were scamming a private charity, would that still be okay with you?
Or pick pocketed you in the park? To me theft is theft.
The irony here is that you claim that the gun owner is not responsible if he is robbed, and here you insist it is the government / tax payers fault that they are being robbed.
I'm not seeing the difference. The government has the duty to keep us safe in our selves and our property. They should try to reduce theft of our guns and of our taxpayer dollars. Passing the law is half of that. Enforcing the law/ managing the dollars is the other half. So is the fault the government if a criminal breaks the law? Not if the normal is to enforce it. Is it normal for government to waste tax dollars unaccountably?
And I wasn't excusing the behavior as described. I was suggesting that government was offering an "attractive nuisance" and thus contributing to the delinquency.
"government has the duty to keep us safe in our selves and our property"
You are starting to sound like a Liberal... :-)
"The government is responsible"...
If they were taking that duty seriously they would pass and enforce some seriously aggressive gun laws.
Well I hope they find all the folks committing fraud and toss them in jail.
If they were taking that duty seriously they would quit doing stupid stuff like declaring gun free zones where criminals can find unarmed victims. They would quit worrying about the 99.9% of gun owners who commit no crimes and start focusing on the criminals.
I would think finding people perpetrating fraud within government programs should be fairly easy, once government decides to look for them.
How again would you find the fraud?
If the owner and parents are in on it... The only way is to set up a video camera on every daycare to audit who is coming and going when, and then comparing it to the forms... That is how they finally caught these.
Or maybe comparing business detailed expenses against reimbursements...
Both would be expensive and likely against your "too much government intrusion" sensibilities.
I was thinking it was easier than that. Daycare provider says it has 86 kids enrolled. You stop by one day and find 20 kids on the premises, room for about 30, and ask why. What I have seen of the forms doesn't offer much basis other than that obvious test for establishing a fraud case.
Study the links closer...
I thought I had, and the conversation isn't worth pursuing further than that. The weaknesses and flaws in the program have been exposed, the investigations are being pursued, charges brought and pleas entered and, one might hope, the bureaucratic flaws and failures will be corrected by the Legislature.
Yep the burglar got in...
So the homeowner should buy more locks...
No wonder bureaucracies get so complicated and expensive...
I think it is much better to just make an example of the burglar.
One of my favorite quotes, from Texas Judge Roy Parker: "It isn't the severity of the punishment [that deters] but the certainty of it." If you don't have enough enforcement, you get more crime. The "example" is made by the certainty of the punishment, not the harshness against one criminal, and the price of that certainty is adequate enforcement. Surely we can have an inspector stop by each of these centers a couple times a year for FAR less than the government is sending to them?
Actually the food program visits daycare's quarterly to check...
Not sure about the daycare subsidy system.
Hmmm. My guess is that the food program and childcare program don't talk to one another-- more government waste and overlap? Otherwise, hard to believe this fraud would not have been uncovered much earlier.
What food program, by the way? Specific to childcare, or?
Almost all child care facilities and schools receive a food subsidy based the number of meals / snacks served.
For poor families it is a ~100% reimbursement. For wealthier students it is less.
I do not disagree that government has its waste. However I think most of that waste and over sight is due to criminal and/or fraudulent citizens... Not a problem with the system.
that does not make sense to me. If people take advantage of loopholes in the system, there is nothing illegal about that – it is simply a matter of poor design of the system. If people do something that the program does not allow, let us call that criminal (if so written in law), but if it is not quickly caught by the rules enforcement, that again is a design flaw in the government system.
If passing a law could stop criminal activity, we would have no crime, And good intentions do not make good law. The law must be written to make clear the bounds of the program and you must have enforcement to keep people within those clear bounds. it is obvious that at least some people have violated the law and enforcement has caught up with them. I am not convinced that all of those involved in this apparently widespread scheme are likewise breaking the law and been apprehended.
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