Laurie wrote the following and I thought it deserved a post of it's own.
The biggest difference from my perspective is that:
"The difference is the DEM's want to do things to improve people's lives. If the far left can get the moderate left to support their agenda halfway, the far left will vote to get half of what they want.Personally I was shocked by this "WE GOOD, THEY BAD" tribal nonsense from Laurie. Where do these Liberals get the hubris to believe:
The far right supports very little in terms of policy for improving peoples lives. They just vote no for everything other than tax cuts and very little gets done."
- the DEMs are the party of "helping people"
- the GOP's are the party of "hurting people"
- there is more than way to solve a problem
- people from both parties want the best for our country
- people from both parties care about others
- Liberals think of poor people as helpless bunny rabbits who need their food, housing and healthcare provided indefinitely because the Liberals do not think the bunnies are capable of learning, improving, making good choices and becoming self sufficient.
- Conservatives believe that the poor people are humans who need a short term safety net occasionally because the Conservatives think the humans are capable of learning, working, improving, making good choices and becoming self sufficient.
99 comments:
Can you cogently explain to me how current GOP health care policy "improves people's lives"?
the GOP has had total control for 1.5 years. what have they accomplished?
Sean,
Since the country is stuck between the ACA and other... I am not sure, however these links seem useful....
AHP Update
Millenial Health Insurance
Laurie,
They have reduced the cost of doing business in the USA and raised the cost of importing, which should benefit all people who want to work.
They have allowed people to buy less expensive health insurance policies. (for better or worse)
They continue to work to save the lives of babies in the womb. Now we can rationalize if they are people are not, but they have hearts and brains. And 600,000 were forcibly removed from their "life support" system in 2014.
"I am not sure"
Exactly.
"They continue to work to save the lives of babies in the womb."
The ONLY people doing this correctly are progressives working to improve access to birth control and information. Republicans are actively working to make it more difficult for these same people, working to restrict access to the most effective birth control and abortion. For the millionth time, criminalizing abortion will never eliminate abortion. Only removing the perceived need for abortion will bring about the desired effect: reduction in numbers. That is done through access and education, things Republicans have shown themselves to be against.
Moose
Sean,
Oh come now, ACA created some winners and losers. Certainly undoing ACA will create some winners and losers. As my links clearly showed.
Moose,
Holding humans accountable is also important, and yet the progressives would prefer that someone else bear the negative consequences when a citizen screws up.
Be that the innocent fetus that we rip the "tubes" out of. Or the tax payers who get stuck with extra financial and societal costs.
Thoughts on how to make individual citizens bear the consequences of their screw ups?
- wasting their free public education
- making a baby before they are ready to care for a child
- other?
Or in your opinion are these folks truly incapable of learning, being responsible, and becoming independent capable adults?
If so, should we give them a legal guardian to make important decisions for them like we would a minor?
No one who knows anything about health care policy thinks AHPs are a serious solution. They save money by reducing what is covered, and the fact that they have the potential to cherry-pick people out of the existing exchange pools is only going to increase premiums for those already in there.
Republicans nominated a man they knew was dishonest and unfit to be president. That's something for which they must be held morally accountable, not just for the act itself, but for the series of events, actions, and decisions that brought this about. And they need to be held morally accountable for their continued support of such a man.
--Hiram
I think of poor people who work hard and who aren't paid enough. For rich people, I think of Andy Puzder a guy who got immensely by constructing a business model which denied poor people workers' benefits. And who nearly got appointed Secretary of Labor of all things as a result.
--Hiram
Sean,
The healthy people who save money on their premiums probably like them a lot.
Hiram,
What has Trump and staff actually enacted that has been so bad?
Until they get sick, sure.
Sorry, John, I just am not a bean counter when it comes to people's lives.
Moose
John, you finally have one right. It could be said that the Left wants to believe in good intentions, and the Right wants to get good results. Why else would you call something an "Affordable Care Act" when it increases the cost of health insurance?
So Liberals want to help people by:
- taking away their personal choices
- mandating what they shall buy
- mandating what they shall save
Now I think some irresponsible citizens should be watched over more closely. But do we really need to "force all" citizens to be responsible and pay more?
Jerry,
Technically ACA was pretty cost neutral, or it even reduced the cost increases.
However it sure did charge some people more to reduce the costs for others.
"But do we really need to "force all" citizens to be responsible and pay more?"
Are you talking health care here? If so, the answer is yes. We've decided as a society that we aren't going to let people just bleed out (again, this was signed into law by *Ronald Reagan*). So, yes, there's a responsibility that we all share on this because by default the government is our insurer of last resort.
Here is a question for John and Jerry that liberals cannot answer:
Why Is Donald Trump So Popular?
to answer my own question I am going with Trump has a certain kind of charisma that appeals to conservatives- that liberals overlook because he is such an corrupt, racist, imbecile
Sean,
Apparently that jury is still out... Giving some people care in rare acute situations is different from giving people years of care.
Laurie,
Just imagine you can block out all of his lying, bragging, womanizing, etc... Now just focus on what he is doing or has been trying to do:
- Stop illegals from crossing the border. Deport illegal workers & criminals
- Allow people to buy the insurance that fits their wants.
- Prevent the murder of fetuses
- Protect / promote US jobs with tariffs, regulatory relief, lower corp taxes, etc
- Reduce taxes for everyone in the USA
- Pressure the public employees to be more effective
Now why are you surprised that his popularity is growing?
"Now why are you surprised that his popularity is growing?"
Um.
The last President who had a lower approval rating that Trump at this point in his first term was Gerald Ford. Trump's approval ratings have been remarkably steady for his entire term (ranging from 37%-47%).
Just imagine you can block out all of his lying, bragging, womanizing, etc.--that is a lot to block out
Based on your link, it looks like he is within 4 points of where Obama was...
Pretty amazing when Liberals are adamant that he is supposedly the worst President ever.
Laurie,
You need to remember that many folks want results and are willing to ignore his human failings.
"Based on your link, it looks like he is within 4 points of where Obama was..."
Sure, and in 2010, Democrats lost 6 seats in the Senate and 63 seats in the House.
In this modern time of the "Great Tribal Divide", I wonder if we will ever see a President go over 50% approval...
Does anyone remember what helped Obama to recover?
"results"
There aren't any!
Sean,
Well we will see if the DEMs can capitalize on Trump's unpopularity in Nov?
They may need to figure out how to make heartland voters more happy.
I think these are results.
- Stop illegals from crossing the border. Deport illegal workers & criminals
- Allow people to buy the insurance that fits their wants.
- Prevent the murder of fetuses
- Protect / promote US jobs with tariffs, regulatory relief, lower corp taxes, etc
- Reduce taxes for everyone in the USA
- Pressure the public employees to be more effective
"Stop illegals from crossing the border. Deport illegal workers & criminals"
Net illegal immigration across the southern border was already zero to negative before 1/20/17.
"Allow people to buy the insurance that fits their wants."
AHPs haven't been expanded yet. The new rule is still pending. The individual mandate repeal does not remove the EHBs.
"Prevent the murder of fetuses"
He has done nothing here.
"Protect / promote US jobs with tariffs, regulatory relief, lower corp taxes, etc"
Job growth is slower than the end of the Obama administration.
"Reduce taxes for everyone in the USA"
Fake news!
"Pressure the public employees to be more effective"
What has he done, specifically?
Fine... Have it your way...
If he has not done anything...
Why are the Liberals in a tizzy?
Oh, he's done things. He's used the Presidency as his own personal piggy bank. He's sold out our allies and cozied up to dictators. He's installed a parade of horribles in his Cabinet and White House staff. He's a racist. I could go on, but you get the idea.
But I mean, seriously, don't you need to see some *evidence* that he's producing results. Or do you just accept it that he's doing good things because you agree with him ideologically?
I have another answer of why trump is so popular with conservatives - a certain percentage of respondents are lying because of partisan polarization. they are on team trump so they say they approve of his performance just to stick it to the liberals, even when they don't approve of his lies, policies and tweets.
So how would you answer a pollster question about Trump, John? Based on your comments here I will guess somewhat approve.
Sean,
I see enough evidence of the above that I put them on the list.
Please remember that I dislike Trump for many reason, however I can understand why Conservative's see him getting things done.
I am not sure why you want to claim nothing is happening when the Liberals are all freaking out about all the bad things Trump and his cronies are doing.
Laurie,
It would depend how the question was written...
Though I would probably woos out and claim undecided...
"I see enough evidence of the above that I put them on the list."
OK. Can you specify some of it?
"I am not sure why you want to claim nothing is happening"
I'm not saying "nothing is happening". I'm saying what is happening is different than what you claim is happening.
you have to watch Fox news, Sean, and follow Trump on Twitter to learn about his many accomplishments
I'll take Trump accomplishments as a future post.
I still want to know more about this...
"DEMs Heroes GOPers Villains" belief system
Now I can understand how Conservatives see Liberals as well meaning naïve emotional idealists who just don't get it...
And yet for some reason Liberals seem to believe that Conservatives are some kind of evil monsters.
It does puzzle me.
Dude, you haven't been paying attention if you haven't seen conservatives calling liberals "evil monsters" or far worse.
that conservatives have become evil monsters is a fairly recent development. It has been developing for a long time but has come to full realization under Trump. Your ideology blinds you from seeing it, John.
Here is the question I just answered for yougov survey:
Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as President? it will surprise no one that I picked strongly disapprove.
Sean,
What "evil intent" do they apply to Liberals from your perspective?
Laurie,
What "ideology" is that?
My belief in:
- personal property rights
- personal freedom
- personal responsibility
- personal consequences
- caring for the truly disabled
- state / regional rights
- law and order
Or something in my chosen principles?
YouGov Trump Survey
Yeah... I would likely be a "Not Sure"...
I would label you as libertarian. It is interesting to me that while many conservatives (journalists and leaders/commentators on cable news) are very critical of the current GOP, that you see this false equivalency between the parties and can not how the current GOP is unfit for governing.
"What "evil intent" do they apply to Liberals from your perspective?"
Lots of them. How many times do we hear right-wingers say that public schools and universities are used for "indoctrination"? How often do we hear right-wingers say that liberals are keeping blacks "on the plantation"? How often do we hear the comparisons to Soviet Russia? Are you familiar with the rhetoric that has been directed towards those with a pro-choice position on abortion (heck, you yourself parrot this sometimes) or who support full rights for the LGBT community? The last Democratic President was accused -- with no evidence -- of being a secret Muslim or a Kenyan socialist or part of an international conspiracy that covered up his true birthplace. Are you familiar with Ann Coulter or Jerome Corsi or Alex Jones or any of the other wild conspiracy theorists on the right?
Laurie,
Based on the differences of opinion I have with my Libertarian friend, I do not think I stray too far from the horizontal line... Please remember that to protect / help unlucky children succeed I am willing to use government control and constrain Baby Mamas / Papas...
I guess I just see the 2 tribes as good / flawed in different ways. Neither has evil intent... They just have different beliefs regarding what a "Great America" looks like and how to achieve it.
Sean,
I agree and disagree with you. Let's look at what Laurie wrote again.
"The difference is the DEM's want to do things to improve people's lives. If the far left can get the moderate left to support their agenda halfway, the far left will vote to get half of what they want.
The far right supports very little in terms of policy for improving peoples lives. They just vote no for everything other than tax cuts and very little gets done."
I guess I would say that "Liberals want to keep and grow the number of dependent" people would be the only equivalent.(ie keep on plantation)
The rest of your examples seem to be more about techniques, beliefs, consequences. Like when Liberals say that Conservatives are trying to dissuade people from voting.
Where as Laurie's comment clearly indicated that she believes Liberals care more about our fellow Americans than Conservatives do.
Something I very much disagree with.
An example...
Who cares more for their child?
The Parent who is demanding and pushes the child to be an independent adult at 18 knowing that they can do it.
The Parent who hugs the child, feeds the child, buys the child things and supports the child into adulthood.
It is obvious that liberals care more about healthcare, food and housing for people who are underpaid in our capitalist society.
You avoided my question, so I will ask some more.
Who are these under paid people?
What is your rationale for defining them as "under paid"?
What is your plan to demand and push them to be an independent adult?
Are you okay leaving them trapped, stupid and dependent?
Do you love them enough push them to attain personal success?
Do you love their children enough to hold these "under paid" people accountable for being responsible mature dedicated Parent(s)?
Or do just want to be them fed and watered, even if they are dysfunctional ???
Is that really love or is that just assuaging ones co-dependent guilt with someone else's money, and taking the easy path?
Even though it means trapping children in the cycle of poverty.
If we have people who are "underpaid," who is responsible for them remaining so rather than scrambling to do better? I've always said that if you do not like what you are being paid, you are completely free to go down the road and find somebody that will pay you better. You are NOT free to demand that you be paid more than you are worth. Well, you are, but you will be disappointed.
many of these people are underpaid:
Millions of educated, experienced workers have been tossed aside by a strong economy
"The rest of your examples seem to be more about techniques, beliefs, consequences."
I don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw here.
"Where as Laurie's comment clearly indicated that she believes Liberals care more about our fellow Americans than Conservatives do."
Go back to the beginning of the thread. I asked you to explain the GOP position on health care and how it improves lives. You posted a couple of links about AHPs, which will only impact a small portion of the population and most health care experts think are -- on the whole -- destined to make the system worse, not better. You've ignored all the actions the GOP has taken to undermine the ACA which has resulted in fewer people having coverage and dramatically increased premiums for some.
Democrats have a clear goal when it comes to health care -- universal coverage -- with some differences in how to get there. What's the goal of GOP policy? I don't know, other than "if Obama did it, it's bad". And complaining about Obama won't help you much if you get cancer.
So when you see folks suggesting that maybe Republicans don't care as much, that's why. Because it's not at all clear what Republicans are trying to do, and in fact, their policies right now are having detrimental effects on the lives of real people. It seems like they're more interested in being able to say "we repealed the ACA" than actually doing something affirmatively to solve the problems.
Jerry,
In Laurie's world even buggy whip makers would be making a "living wage".
Laurie,
Giving a link does answer the questions. Without knowing more details about these people, I have no idea what they should be paid or if I would even hire them...
Sean,
You are ignoring the fact that ACA drove up the premiums for many self employed people. And made it so many people had to give up their Doctor. Are you even going to acknowledge these downsides to ACA or just deny they exist.
True that some got insurability and/or medicaid and/or subsidies... But the reality is that another citizens had to pay for these "miracles". Many citizens were not happy with the deal. And they would be satisfied if ACA was fully dismantled.
"You are ignoring the fact that ACA drove up the premiums for many self employed people. And made it so many people had to give up their Doctor. Are you even going to acknowledge these downsides to ACA or just deny they exist."
Sure, there are downsides. But Trump's changes to the ACA have driven the premiums even higher for those self-employed people! And, yes, there were network changes (but there were such changes before the ACA, too!) for some people.
And even if all that you say is true, it still doesn't answer the question I posed. What is the GOP vision of how health care should work? What are you trying to achieve? Are you saying that we can't do better than the pre-ACA status quo?
Sean,
Remember my rule about "always assume good intent".
Do you think the Liberals have good intentions?
Do you think the Conservatives have good intentions?
I refuse to accept that either tribe is out to intentionally harm people. Where as I am assuming that Laurie believes that is the goal of the GOP monsters.
Sometimes it is easy for me to believe some of the Liberal elite do strive to enable dysfunctional families for political gain. But then I remind myself that they are just trying to keep people fed / cared for... Like I do for my dog Izzy...
With my daughters I love them and am hard on them and push them towards knowledge and independence. With Izzy I just love her and hope she stops digging holes in my yard....
FYI. She is a Golden Lab / American Fox Hound that we rescued at ~4 yrs old. She never runs away from us... But she sure will follow any scent that mesmerizes her... She looks like this one...
Well actually Izzy is bigger... She weighs in at ~75 pounds and never looks happier than when she brings me a dead or mostly dead rabbit, gopher or skunk... :-)
I have few expectations for her to develop and grow wiser...
I have much more faith in the capabilities of humans!!!
Sean,
I am not sure if we can do better than the pre-ACA status quo.
First we would all have to agree to what better looks like?
Is better a system that does not make smokers, unhealthy eaters, non-exercisers, etc pay more for their insurance?
Is it okay that a wealthy older couple like my Parents have to pay for their healthcare and the healthcare of dozens of other Americans?
If the goal is that everybody has healthcare with no motivation to improve their health because the bills are going else where... Is that really success?
By the way, my improved diet allowed me to "pass" my blood test so that I will continue to pay lower premiums at work!!! :-) That is worth about $3,000 per year on my family plan.
Now that is a way to motivate me to eat salads and pass on french fries...
why do GOP voters like trump? here is part of R Cohen's answer:
"But it’s clear that something beyond economics — and certainly not foreign policy — motivates Trump’s people. My guess is that it’s a low-boil rage against a vague and threatening liberalism — urbane, educated, affluent, secular, diverse and sexually tolerant. It is, in other words, some of the same sentiment that once fueled European fascism."
"First we would all have to agree to what better looks like?"
Democrats have articulated what they think "better" looks like. Republicans haven't. All they've given us is opposition to Democratic goals.
Republicans have had 9 years to come up with their own alternative. Where is it? I don't know if their intentions are bad or not because I don't really know what they're trying to do, other than be "not Obama". What I can say is that the actions they have taken are not having positive results.
It also doesn't help folks assume positive intent when some conservatives do things like constantly comparing poor people to animals.
Sean,
Actually I am comparing Liberals to people who feed animals or spoil their children to make themselves feel better. Even though it is bad for the long term well being of the animals or the children.
OK, that still leaves plenty of times you have actually compared poor people to animals.
Laurie,
Please remember that it is Liberals who want to over whelm and rule over the rural minority. And it is the Conservatives who want all States to keep some of their power and influence.
I think the Liberal tribe is just name calling. Facism does not seem to fit.
"Facism:
1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control"
"And it is the Conservatives who want all States to keep some of their power and influence."
Which is why the Trump Admin is trying to end California's tougher emissions standards, right?
I guess I disagree...
Every time I use the comparison, it is the same concept...
Do we as a society see unsuccessful people as:
1. needy dependent creatures to be fed and cared for?
2. capable humans who can succeed given the correct tough love incentives and expectations?
I believe in #2, where as often Liberals fight something as logical as work and training requirements.
It looks like the Fed / Calif dispute may have a national impact.
It reminds me of my old test for judging a political candidate: Do NOT tell me what that other guy will do, or what he thinks. You cannot possibly know and may not even understand. Tell me what YOU will do and how it will actually work.
It is perfectly fine to say "Democrats want high quality low cost health care for everybody" but that is not possible. It has been truly said that there are three components to every solution-- cost, availability and quality. You may control any TWO. And, when you do, you may not like what happens to the third.
It is perfectly fine to say "Democrats want high quality low cost health care for everybody" but that is not possible.
But things like it are possible. And let's bear in mind that the discussion we are having is not whether health care should be provided, but rather how it should be paid for. Even Republicans have figured out that health insurance, one way we pay for health care, doesn't have anything to do with health care itself.
Republicans do like to say we can't afford stuff. But the problem they have with that is they say that while also passing what they tell us are the biggest tax cuts in history. I am sorry, but I just see that as inconsistent.
--Hiram
The challenge is that people almost always make better choices when they have skin in the game.
Unfortunately the Liberal view is to let people use someone else's skin...
Would I be making better health choices if it did not save me money?
Will a young person be more careful to ensure they do not get pregnant if they knew they had to pay all the bills? (ie no government checks)
Will someone study harder in school if ???
Will a person make better health choices if they don't have to mortgage their house to see the doctor?
Moose
I assume people would make better choices if they knew their home may be at risk in the future.
Unfortunately young, impetuous and/or foolish people have a hard time living today in a manner that minimizes and prepares them for future risks.
They simply don't think that rainy day will come... So they don't save for it. :-(
John, the bean counter, to the rescue.
"You didn't plan for years of expensive health care due to an unforeseen debilitating illness. Too bad. So sad. You can die penniless."
I can't think of anything that sums up the Republican Party any better.
Moose
Moose,
What recommendation do you have for encouraging every citizen to:
- Learn, Improve and Work
- Save and Invest for Their Future
- Make Good Life and Health Choices
I understand that you want tax payers to fund people when they screw up or are unlucky.
But do you have any ideas on how to encourage all of America's citizens to be responsible citizens who take care of themselves, their families and contribute to the success of our country?
Instead of making choices that make them and their families a drag on our country's success and their fellow citizens?
"where as often Liberals fight something as logical as work and training requirements."
These were signed into law on the federal level by Bill Clinton.
"...a drag on our country's success and their fellow citizens?"
I can't help you regain your conscience if you believe that having healthy citizens is a drag.
Moose
Sean,
Do you think Bill could be elected now days?
A Conservative Democrat from Arkansas?
I just don't see it...
Moose,
Living healthy for most people has little to do with free healthcare.
It means maintaining a healthy weight and exercising. 2 things that MANY Americans are not doing.
So again...
What recommendation do you have for encouraging every citizen to:
- Learn, Improve and Work
- Save and Invest for Their Future
- Make Good Life and Health Choices
What recommendation do you have for encouraging every citizen to:
- Learn, Improve and Work
A society that treats all people equally.
- Save and Invest for Their Future
Free college tuition and single payer healthcare
- Make Good Life and Health Choices
Prospects for a life out from under the thumb of racism,oligarchy, and other oppressive regimes, in which a significant illness isn't a road to destitution.
Moose
Let's test your idea...
We already give:
- many children a free pre K education
- every child a free K-12 education
- most poor people free health care
- most poor people food stamps
And yet a huge percentage of young adults struggle academically.
I think the jury is in and the verdict is that giving people free stuff is NOT the way to motivate people to learn, improve, work, save, invest, make good life / health choices, etc.
For the intrinsically motivated people that may work fine, however many of them do fine in our current system.
Any other ideas that are a bit more pragmatic, and less wishful?
"...less wishful..."
Says the guy who voted for a misogynist, racist, xenophobe, and failed businessman expecting him to change his colors once elected.
I'll take my lessons on wishful thinking from someone more qualified.
Moose
Free college tuition is easy: All professors, administrators and staff work for $0.00
Free health care is easy: All doctors and other health care providers work for $ 0.00
As for treating all people equally, how about guaranteeing them the equal opportunity for an education, rather than trapping the poor kids in schools than will not teach them?
Jerry,
Even with all that... Would every citizen strive to:
- Learn, Improve and Work
- Save and Invest for Their Future
- Make Good Life and Health Choices
It is a mystery that folks believe that giving people stuff will lead them to living as a responsible mature independent productive American citizen...
I wasn't talking to you, jerry. You have nothing of value to offer.
...and now Trump is going to subsidize people who were irresponsible in choosing the career path of being a farmer. Why can't those people save and invest for the hard times like everyone else?
Moose
"Do you think Bill could be elected now days?
A Conservative Democrat from Arkansas?"
There's going to be a moderate Dem (or two) in the 2020 race, whether it's Mitch Landrieu or Amy Klobuchar or Steve Bullock or an outsider like Howard Schultz. It's not entirely crazy that a good moderate candidate would stand a chance of emerging after the more progressives beat up on each other. That's sort of how John Kerry won in 2004.
Moose, I am happy to offer nothing. You should be able to get what you want by your own efforts. If you think people should have free health care, YOU give it to them. If you think they deserve free college, YOU pay for it. I don't know where Liberals find that magical, mystical money tree, but "sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
The same place Republicans find money for tax cuts and corporate handouts and handouts to farmers who apparently don’t know how to run their business...from other people.
And I am more than happy to invest in the citizens of this country through my taxes, because it benefits the entire country. I’m sorry that you can’t see beyond the end of your nose. We are all poorer for the policies of Republicans.
Moose
Policy Brief: Labor Market Facing SNAP and Medicaid Participants Offers Low-Paying, Volatile Jobs
So, Moose, letting people keep more of their own money via tax cuts and tax breaks is the same as spending government money? Where does government get the money it gives away?
Interesting item, Laurie. Thank you. This Republican looks at it and says what we have with our current welfare system is one that does not encourage work, and fails to provide people the opportunities needed to improve their job prospects and income. A bad system, IOW. Miserable cost/benefit.
What I thought was interesting is that there was no discussion of people seeking new skills or knowledge so that they could move into more stable and well paying jobs...
It focused exclusively on the idea that these people need to be given money so they can in essence stay the same, not move and stay trapped in the same crummy job(s).
Where is the discussion of how these people can work to improve their circumstances, move to a better community, etc?
We have immigrants moving across countries and risking their lives to get here and make money... And somehow they make enough so they can send money back to their family South of the border. What are our home grown poor doing wrong?
John, you are identifying the difference between Left and Right. The Left, as it appears to me, believes that "caring"-- good intentions-- and government fiat can alter reality, while the Right believes people have the capacity to solve their own problems given the opportunity and a little true help.
Should farmers have to be drug tested or prove that they have looked for other jobs before they receive entitlements?
Moose
Moose,
I don't know the terms for the new program, however rarely do the farmers get "money for nothing". Usually government dollars come with government controls. (ie must take certain land out of production, etc)
I am fine drug testing farmers if you wish.
Jerry,
As you know, in my view both sides seem to have their failings. And both sides seem happy allowing ill prepared people to take little innocent dependent babies home. Which of course is the root cause of many of our country's social problems.
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