Monday, July 30, 2018

School Updates by Erin

41 comments:

jerrye92002 said...

I've been waiting for somebody to sue the Mpls or even Minnesota school systems for failure to provide an adequate education, using race as a marker for "bad" education. I think it needs to happen, since it is widely acknowledged that Minnesota has the widest "gap" in the nation. What I did not expect was the notion that by mixing the races together we could resolve the gap. All you do is create great expense and detract from the educational experience for everybody. The secret is to let people choose, and if all-black schools are chosen by black parents, and all-white schools by white parents, and all of them are getting better educated (given some reasonable standard) than in their previous [public, integrated] school, what is the problem? The world "outside" is integrated, and having your basic skills will allow you to survive better than having an integrated social setting and dumbed-down learning.

I also wonder... is a "96% black" school populated by 92% of students of color, and 8% biracial kids? Do we place far too much emphasis on race; isn't a kid a kid?

John said...

Did you ever think you would agree with Levy-Pounds? :-)

"Making sure the courts understand the “distinction between a segregated environment that is forced upon someone as a result of their race and their socio-economic status versus culturally affirming schools” as this case move forward will be key, says Nekima Levy-Pounds, a civil rights attorney who recently ran to become mayor of Minneapolis.

“In the Supreme Court’s decision, they seem to be lumping in culturally affirming school environments with traditional public schools in urban environments. It’s wiping away parent choice and autonomy, in terms of knowing what is in the best interest of our kids — as far as a school learning environment — and what is not,” she said. “The courts need to hear from parents who have chosen culturally affirming environments, so that they see that parents are conscious in making these decisions and that our children are faring much better, in many respects.”

Reflecting on the consequences of Brown v. Board of Education, she noted that many black teachers lost their jobs and black children who were forcibly bussed to school in predominantly white communities endured racism from their peers, teachers and classmates’ parents. “So that is terrifying for many African-American parents, to think about the government forcing us to send our children to environments that are unprepared for them, that do not want them there,” she said."

John said...

I added the report card info for the 4 districts in the first link to the post.

I am not sure how anybody thinks they can directly compare these apples and watermelons. They vary greatly in:
- English learner
- Special ed
- Homelessness
- Parent motivation / capability

Not to mention race...



Laurie said...

It is hard (impossible?) to filter the data on the MDE website to compare non ELL african americans at mps to the charter schools. I think on the MPS data you could filter black ELL learners and end up with a group similar to the student body at my school. But to compare to the charters mentioned you want black students who are non ELL. I don't think you can do this with the filters on the MDE website.

jerrye92002 said...

If we had ready choice, I can foresee some charters specializing in non-ELL students, segregating kids all kinds of ways, and to their benefit. I see nothing to be saved by keeping any kind of kid captive in a school that doesn't work for them.

John said...

Laurie,
What I wish they also showed was mobility...

I mean we already know that a parent(s) who is aware, and takes the time and effort to sign their kids up for a magnet and/or charter school are going to be more capable and responsible than many in the traditional inner city public schools.

I am curious if that capability, focus and dedication shows up in being dedicated to keeping their child in the same school for years at a time.

RDale does fine with most kids who stay in the district, unfortunately many of the poor kids transfer in / out of the classroom / district often. Then folks wonder why the kids are not learning.

John said...

Jerry,
Any system that enables and encourages kids to leave their unlucky peers behind will help them and harm those left behind with their dead beat, incapable and/or immature parent(s)...

Whether that is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion.

And worse yet the "success rates" of Friendship and Higher Ground are still pretty dismal given that there are few English Learners or Special Needs kids when compared to Mpls or SP.

And they charters only have somewhat dedicated parent(s)...

John said...

Laurie,
I found Levy-Pounds terms interesting...

"culturally affirming school environments with traditional public schools in urban environments"

In the case of your kids... You get a whole bunch of non-English speakers who enjoy being comfortable with a bunch of other Somalis, to the detriment of the education of their children.

If the Parent(s) truly wanted their kids to adapt, learn and succeed in America, they would make sure they were in a school surround by English speaking American kids... I mean that is why "immersion schools" are a great way to teach a foreign language and culture.

John said...

I assume the same applies to why poor unlucky kids surrounded by poor unlucky kids yield more poor unlucky kids...

I mean the class mates, friendships, role models, attitudes, etc are so critical to a child's learning and development.

jerrye92002 said...

Think about this for a minute. I put a check for $15,000 in a parent's hand, tell them to find a good school for their kid, and give them the check. You don't think parental attitudes towards education would change markedly? I can hear it now, "You know what I paid for your education, you are d**n well going to get it!" You always talk as if demography was destiny, and we simply cannot allow that to be true.

Laurie said...

I think many students in charter schools are there because they were not being successful in their home school. My charter school has a lot of turnover. Every year many kids come and leave, many times related to behavior issues.

John said...

No for the ~10th time... For the usual reasons:

- Amount needed to teach child varies greatly. $15,000 will be too much for kids like mine and too little for special needs kids.

- The check is like welfare, do you think people receiving welfare make better decisions because they got free money?

- Fraud thrives where "free money" exists...

Of course demographics and peers are critical to success. Especially when you have 25+ kids in a classroom.

John said...

Laurie, Unfortunately there is definitely something not going well at the school given the results. Hopefully they can turn it around.

John said...

Of course the demographics do not help...

English Learner 90.4%
Spec Ed 4%
Free Lunch 99.6%
Homeless 4.4%

And high mobility...

Laurie said...

Many parents are not savvy consumers when it comes to picking a school for their child and will choose and stick with a school that gets poor results. The state should probably be a little bit tougher on closing down schools that fail to improve sufficiently. My school, I hope, could stay open as our test scores reflect the demographic or our students (low income, EL learners)

We have spent the last 3 years on the bad schools list trying to improve. Not sure of our current status as the system doesn't seem well defined to me with the relatively new ESSA. I think it leaves a lot up to the state in monitoring academic achievement and assisting or closing low performing schools. Our principal or superintendent never seem worried that we are on a path leading to being shut down.

Laurie said...

I think our status in staying open and trying to get off the bad school list depends somewhat on our growth scores. I am providing a link that I hope works, as I don't know how to put the actual graphs into my comment.


Banaadir Growth compared to MPS growth

John said...

That is definitely hopeful that their trend is improving. Now if they can just keep the mobility low.

"Minnesota Growth: Are students making expected growth?
The Minnesota Growth Model was designed with input from parents and educators to determine if students are gaining and maintaining skills necessary to be academically successful. Growth towards that goal is classified as low, medium or high.
For each student in the state, scores from last year are compared to the current year. Expectations are set based on average improvements from year to year on statewide assessments. Students considered "on track" include proficient students who made medium or high growth and non-proficient students who made high growth.
This provides an indication of how well your district/school is doing to help students know and understand the content of the Minnesota K-12 Academic Standards."

jerrye92002 said...

"The check is like welfare..." That is simply incorrect. It comes in a VOUCHER, only good at a recognized school. The more responsible parents will finally have the means to choose, and the less responsible parents will have that responsibility thrust upon them, and be forced to recognize the value of that "free" public education. And I will continue to exist that, GIVEN THE MEANS, almost all parents would choose what is best for their child.

jerrye92002 said...

Oh, and the voucher should be for the amount the local district would spend on that child, including the vast difference between elementary, middle and high school, and IEP students should have individual funding plans. You could even give more to the FRL and ESL kids, but I don't think it would be necessary. I'm betting a charter school in Mpls could educate them for less than $15,000/year.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, that's fabulous! You mean with your "awful" demographics, your school succeeds at a much higher rate than the public school in general?! And you do it for less money!? At what point do we start allowing kids to escape these public school "failure factories"?

John said...

Jerry,
1. Welfare checks are also only good for food in certain stores also. (in most cases)

2. The performance of the charters noted above are not much different from Mpls or St Paul schools. And as noted that have a less challenging mix of students.

3. Did you actually look at the achievement graphs? (ie facts) Friendship Academy was the only one doing a little better and they have no Language Learners, few spec ed and few homeless.

Laurie said...

As I already said you cannot make comparisons on the achievement levels of non ELL African Americans between the 2 charters and MPS based on the data filters on the school report cards.
For MPS filtering for the group of black students contains many ELL's

jerrye92002 said...

The charts I saw were for Benaadir (sp) Academy, which I thought was Laurie's. That one DID show a substantial positive difference.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why poor kids, even those who would like to seek a better education, must be imprisoned in the local, under-performing public schools?

John said...

Laurie,
That is pretty well my point. One really can not tell if a school is better or worse without slicing the results by each segment / demographic of it's student body. Whereas Jerry is happy to compare apples and watermelons and judge one as failing and one as excellent.

Jerry,
School Comparisons

Same old questions...
1. Is it the school failing the kids?
2. Or the community / parent(s) failing the kids?

You know my view 30% #1 and 70% #2...

jerrye92002 said...

Same old questions.

1) Why will you not allow parents at least a CHOICE in which school their kids attend?
2) Why do you want to solve the 70% over which "we" have no control, rather than the 30% (your figures) which we do?

Suppose you whip out your magic wand and suddenly make half the "unlucky kids" in North Minneapolis into "lucky kids." Their education might improve due to coaching at home, but will the schools do one bit better with the ones who are still unlucky? Couldn't we accomplish more by letting every parent pick a school that works and force the publics to improve their performance to "stay in business"?

Laurie said...

I think there are about 50 charter schools in Mpls from which parents can choose. I don't know about the extent of choice wihin MPS.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, are there any barriers to parents choosing one of these charters? Transportation, tuition, qualifications, capacity limits?

John said...

Yep... In MN we have no shortage of school choice... (ie normal, magnets, charters, on line charters, open enroll, move residence, home school, etc) And still communities and parent(s) fail their children.

And Jerry says... But a miracle will occur if we give people just 1 more option... :-)

In fact we have so many that now the courts are concerned their diversity is suffering... Pretty amazing.

Laurie said...

Some charters have a waiting list or lottery to get in. I don't think very many of them. My school has been full at certain grades in the past for parents who want to enroll mid year. I think many charters will provide busing over a pretty wide area. Some charters have parents sign something about the support they will provide their child in regards to attendance, homework, behavior, etc.

John said...

This is an interesting piece even though the study seems to skip the the key demographics I am concerned about.

"“Portrait of the Movement” provides an in-depth analysis of California’s 720 charter schools (new schools without data were not included), comparing them to traditional public schools along three important variables: their absolute test scores, their test scores relative to the students’ socioeconomic backgrounds, and their improvement over time."

Portrait of a Movement 2017

jerrye92002 said...

"no shortage of school choice" And yet a recent survey shows that while 83% of kids attend public school, only 33% of parents have that as their first choice, with 15% more preferring a public charter. So it isn't a question of "one more choice" but a question of having any choice at all.

And if diversity is a good thing, then shouldn't a diversity of educational choices, freely available, ALSO be a good thing?

John said...

Source?

jerrye92002 said...

Diversity is a good thing according to those suing the schools for not being integrated enough. As if that mattered.

John said...

So no source for your outrageous comment...

Are you trying to use Trump as a role model?

Laurie said...

Why so many poor kids who get into college don’t end up enrolling

jerrye92002 said...

"So no source for your outrageous comment.." Why are you outraged by the truth?

Laurie said...

The 2017 EdNext Poll on School Reform

Laurie said...

Gallup education poll

John said...

Jerry,
No source... It is just an opinion.

jerrye92002 said...

No source for NOT believing what I tell you, either. I DID look it up. Prove me wrong, otherwise yours is just an opinion.

Thanks, Laurie, very thorough, though I point out it is an /opinion/ poll. There could easily be a difference between whether people think that, for example, all parents should have vouchers vs. would THEY want a voucher for themselves.

jerrye92002 said...

And I think general surveys understate the problem. The rich people who moved to find "better schools" are largely happy with their choice. Take the same survey in an inner city school district and you will find a much higher level of dissatisfaction because those folks cannot afford the "choice" of something better-- whether actually better or not.