Adults are focused on Adults.
And unfortunately Adverse Childhood Experiences can and often do have long term negative and sometimes irreversible consequences. So waiting until they are 5 is often too late. :-(
Yep, we got no where on How to Fix the Gaps. However I did come across this interesting report by the Federal Reserve. Of course with both the Liberals and Conservatives fighting these, no wonder the kids still suffer. :-(
We also watched an interesting bio-pic about Lucy Laney Elementary. They seem to be trying to do everything right however the test scores are still poor.
Too bad we won't enforce these rights to help kids in America. I wonder how our culture decided to let pretty much anyone make and keep babies until severe neglect or abuse occurred? It is so sad.
And unfortunately Adverse Childhood Experiences can and often do have long term negative and sometimes irreversible consequences. So waiting until they are 5 is often too late. :-(
Yep, we got no where on How to Fix the Gaps. However I did come across this interesting report by the Federal Reserve. Of course with both the Liberals and Conservatives fighting these, no wonder the kids still suffer. :-(
"A few common themes emerge across these successful school districts and schools. First, schools are given greater autonomy. In New Orleans, the schools under the OPSB were replaced with independent schools that were directly accountable to the state’s RSD. In New York, the Promise Academy was given autonomy in implementing its own community and school programs. The report on high-achieving disadvantaged districts finds that school principals were given autonomy to lead, which helped attract, develop, and retain high-quality teachers.
Second, there is a focus on school quality. Research on the Promise Academy demonstrated that flexibility in teacher recruitment and retention combined with improvements in pedagogical methods led to better outcomes. A common theme in the high-performing disadvantaged districts study is a focus on school quality, including maximizing student learning time and using data and coaching to improve instruction.
Third, support services for students and their families correlate with enhanced education outcomes. Students in the Boston Connects program receive individualized services that are associated with gains in achievement test scores and reductions in dropout rates. Meanwhile, providing a variety of student and family supports is a key strategy to advancing student outcomes in the Harlem Children’s Zone.
These examples indicate that closing achievement gaps is challenging, but possible. "It seems pretty obvious to me that the only way unlucky kids will thrive and succeed is if we help them even before they are born. ( ie Harlem Children's Zone, City Connects) Unfortunately I have little hope that it will happen. :-(
We also watched an interesting bio-pic about Lucy Laney Elementary. They seem to be trying to do everything right however the test scores are still poor.
Too bad we won't enforce these rights to help kids in America. I wonder how our culture decided to let pretty much anyone make and keep babies until severe neglect or abuse occurred? It is so sad.
117 comments:
Oops... Somehow I blocked comments by accident...
It is fixed now.
Remember the goal...
So how do we encourage poor Black, Hispanic, Native American, White, etc adults to:
- strive for education
- strive to get married and stay married
- strive to wait before having children
- learn about money management
- fight the gangs in their communities
- end the addictions that pay the gangs
- etc
We didn't teach Trump any of those things, and he still got to be president.
Much as I love our schools they are not a panacea for all society's ills. Somehow turning private schools into public schools, I don't think, will help much.
--Hiram
We are in agreement on that, schools can can make up for incapable parent(s) and crime ridden poor neighborhoods.
The Lucy Laney video demonstrates that well. As do the many charter schools that do no better than their local status quo public schools. :-(
The kids who start the race far behind with additional hurdles thrown up in their way will rarely catch up.
So the question is how to ensure they do not get behind and how to ensure the hurdles are minimized?
There are few things that touch me emotionally while blogging.
However when Laurie and Jerry defend the right for drug addicts, alcoholics, welfare recipients, etc to just making babies because it is "their right", that does make me angry. :-[
I just think about that welfare Mom who can not feed her other 6 kids or that drug addicted Mom being allowed to bring home another baby just sits so wrong with me, and the Children's rights idea
And yet Jerry and Laurie seem fine with it as long as the adult is happy. :-(
As I said... "
"The Poor Kids are Screwed :-("
you are the one with the radical position when it comes to taking children away from their parent. I support the current child protection system.
Do you mean the current system where a MILLION kids a year are subjected to abuse and neglect in their living situation?
And please remember that I do not support taking kids away from home in most cases, I support never letting them be brought home if that home is highly questionable.
Where as you seem to advocate for letting addicts and homeless / near homeless people to bring home a little baby into their dysfunction.
And then you complain that they are poor and uneducated.
Here are a few "Rights" that jump out:
18. Parents are the main people responsible for bringing up a child. When the child does not have any parents, another adult will have this responsibility and they are called a “guardian”. Parents and guardians should always consider what is best for that child. Governments should help them. Where a child has both parents, both of them should be
responsible for bringing up the child.
24. Children have the right to the best health care possible, clean water to drink, healthy food and a clean and safe environment to live in. All adults and children should have information about how to stay safe and healthy
3. When adults make decisions, they should think about how their decisions will affect children. All adults should do what is best for children. Governments should make sure children are protected and looked after by their parents, or by other people when this is needed. Governments should make sure that people and places responsible for looking after children are doing a good job.
27. Children have the right to food, clothing and a safe place to live so they can develop in the best possible way. The government should help families and children
who cannot afford this
My pet peeve if you did not know is that our society worries more about rights than children's rights. 🙁 How about we put Kids first for a couple of generations and see what happens. 🙂
I wonder how many kids in America do not enjoy these basic rights?
And how many citizens support them NOT HAVING THEM.
One as simple as this...
"Parents and guardians should always consider what is best for that child."
How do you rationalize letting a baby go home with a welfare Mom who has 6 kids already or a Mom who is addicted?
Obviously, John believes that every child of poverty is not only abused, but cannot possibly learn anything in the current public school system. While the latter may be somewhat true for some children, John cannot admit that the schools bear a large part of the responsibility. His own sources have told him that. The public schools are paid handsomely to do a job, have claimed that they are the only ones who can, and command we ignore their manifold failures rather than demand accountability for the princely sums expended. For example: Let's assume an ideal class size of 25, and the per-pupil in this school is the state average of roughly $10,000/year. That's a quarter-million dollars going into that classroom, and the teacher gets the MN average of roughly $60,000. Where did the other 3/4 of the money go? And are the results commensurate with the total expenditure?
Jerry,
Please feel free to rationalize away the suffering of millions of abused and neglected children however you wish.
And please remember that I support school reform also.
I just realize that ages 0 to 5 are CRITICAL for children.
Where as you prefer to ignore them during that period.
Just a few reminders of how early stressors can screw up their brain long term.
Link 1
Link 2
CDC ACE Page
Abuse or Dysfunction by category
Psychological
(Did a parent or other adult in the household ...)
Often or very often swear at, insult, or put you down?
Often or very often act in a way that made you afraid that you would be physically hurt?
Physical
(Did a parent or other adult in the household ...)
Often or very often push, grab, shove, or slap you?
Often or very often hit you so hard that you had marks or were injured?
Sexual
(Did an adult or person at least 5 years older ever ...)
Touch or fondle you in a sexual way?
Have you touch their body in a sexual way?
Attempt oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse with you?
Actually have oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse with you?
Household dysfunction by category
Substance abuse
Live with anyone who was a problem drinker or alcoholic?
Live with anyone who used street drugs?
Mental illness
Was a household member depressed or mentally ill?
Did a household member attempt suicide?
Mother treated violently
Was your mother (or stepmother)
Sometimes, often, or very often pushed, grabbed, slapped, or had something thrown at her?
Sometimes, often, or very often kicked, bitten, hit with a fist, or hit with something hard?
Ever repeatedly hit over at least a few minutes?
Ever threatened with, or hurt by, a knife or gun?
Criminal behavior in household
Did a household member go to prison?
ACEs and Poverty
Nine adverse experiences are included in this indicator. These were adapted from the earlier ACEs research[3] for use in a survey where parents are the reporters about their child. For each item, parents are asked to respond whether the focal child “ever” had the experience.
Economic hardship (if experienced “somewhat” or “very” often)
Divorce/separation of a parent
Death of a parent
A parent served time in jail
Witness to adult domestic violence
Victim of or witness to neighborhood violence
Living with someone who was mentally ill or suicidal
Living with someone who had an alcohol or drug problem
Being treated or judged unfairly due to race/ethnicity
All references to parents refer exclusively to parents who lived with the child. Economic hardship was excluded in comparisons based on poverty level.
OK, 50 million school age kids in the US, 1% of them abused, does NOT come out to "millions." And you are still overgeneralizing that poverty makes it impossible for ANY kid to succeed in school, regardless of what the school does.
You really stepped in it by saying that it doesn't matter what the parents want. It may be true, because the millions of parents that want school vouchers, and the millions more who just want their kids to succeed in school, are not getting what they want, because some people [ahem] keep making excuses for why the schools bear no responsibility for their primary responsibility of educating every child. And it's not what the teachers want, either, the vast majority of them. It's the educrats, politicians, unions, administrators and the "system" preventing everybody from getting what they want. It should not matter what condition the child arrives at the kindergarten door, the school has the responsibility to help that individual child learn. Maybe not as much as the advantaged kids, but far more than they are given in most public schools today.
Are some kids disadvantaged? Certainly, you can stop beating that horse now. But to then say that the schools cannot teach that child anything, or that a 60-70% gap is acceptable (and immutable) because of it? That is just wrong on several levels.
Jerry,
You are not reading my sources again... :-(
As I said, I am for holding the education and social worker systems accountable. As I always have been.
I'll have to study exactly what the "gap" means. Since I assuming the academic capabilities are a distribution, not pass / fail.
Not sure the point of reading these particular sources, since your point seems to be that demography is destiny, and I've repeatedly and readily admitted that some kids are educationally disadvantaged. MY point is that they should not REMAIN educationally disadvantaged throughout their school years, and that is the job of the schools, as your previous sources (which I did read) confirm. Not parents, not social workers. While those people can contribute to success, the primary source of education has to be educators. Duh. And right now they are not doing it well.
Not sure why there is a question in your mind about the "gap" being discussed. We're talking about comparison of black kids versus white kids, and which in MN is the largest in the country. And because it is NOT the difference between poor kids and rich kids, which you keep highlighting, it would seem that what you are defending is "systemic racism" in the schools. Hard to believe. If every kid was treated according to what they needed rather than what their "luckier" classmates had, much of that gap could be reduced, and again that is what the schools SHOULD be doing. Anything that can be done to alleviate poverty is good, but is not nearly so immediately achievable nor fundamental.
Now if you would have read the sources.
You would realize that the gaps are about a lot more than race.
"While Minnesota’s educational disparities are well-known, this report
shows that these disparities are evident across race, ethnicity, and
socioeconomic status. They are equally deep statewide and between
school types. That is, disparities are not limited to Twin Cities metro
area schools or to traditional public schools. This is a challenge for all
of Minnesota.
This report documents patterns of disparities for three main outcomes—
performance on standardized tests, graduation rates, and indicators
of college readiness. Across these measures, achievement gaps have
persisted for decades despite policies implemented to promote equal
opportunity for education, including school choice, changes in teacher
evaluation systems and compensation, and equalizing per capita funding
across districts. "
And that neglect / abuse is sadly very prevalent. And this 1+ million per year are only the reported and verified, and it is mostly the young defenseless kids. So how many more kids are out there living in terrible situations that just are not reported?
And your answer is to just keep ignoring it until it happens...
"How common is the problem of child maltreatment?
Child maltreatment is widespread. Each year throughout the United States, over 3 million children are reported to state child protective services agencies. Nearly 1 million cases are substantiated. Child neglect is the most commonly reported form of maltreatment. The most common victims of physical and emotional abuse are infants, toddlers, preschool children and young adolescents."
And we know where abuse and neglect is likely to occur... And yet you are happy to keep sending kids home with these folks. :-(
"Why does child abuse occur?
Parent can be overwhelmed and lack knowledge of critical issues surrounding parenting, financial or other environmental stressors.
Parent has difficulty in relationships, depression or other mental health problems can all lead to abusive or neglectful behavior.
Parent has lack of understanding of the child’s developmental stages and hold unreasonable expectations for child’s abilities. Parent is unaware of alternatives to corporal punishment or how to discipline children most effectively at each age.
Parent lacks knowledge of the health, hygiene, and nutritional needs of their children
The most common group of people found to be responsible for neglect of victims is mothers acting alone. In cases of sexual abuse, non-relatives and fathers acting alone are more likely to be responsible.
In what type of family is abuse or neglect most likely to occur?
Child abuse and neglect occur in all segments of our society, but the risk factors are greater in families where parents:
Abuse alcohol or drugs
Are isolated from their families or communities
Have difficulty controlling their anger or stress
Appear uninterested in the care, nourishment, or safety of their children
Seem to be having serious economic, housing, or personal problems"
sigh... I simply do not understand why you keep insisting that "bad parents" are entirely responsible for the obvious fact that educators fail to educate. You seem to believe government should strictly control millions of individual parents, rather than exert the control they already have over a few government-run school districts. Yes, there are a few bad parents, but to slander every poor or black or minority parent is simply beyond the pale. Admit it, there are a few bad /schools/ out there, too, committing horrible abuse of children. Once again, you allow the educrats profiting from this sad state of affairs to escape all responsibility. So tell me, if a child cannot read by third grade, is that the fault of parents, or of the school system that has supposedly taught the child to read for 4 years?
"When children do not read on grade-level by the end of third grade, they are four times more likely to leave school without a diploma (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 2010), and those who do not graduate from high school are 3.5 times more likely to be incarcerated than their peers who do (Alliance for Excellent Education, 2010)."
Oh, and despite other demographic factors, the "gap" that we MEASURE is based entirely on race. And the size of it, in MN, is a disgrace, regardless of what other demographic factors may have contributed. I would wager that this "gap" has more to do with the school attended than with race.
Here we go again... You seem to be in total denial regarding items #1 and #2 in my proposal.
1. Weaken or eliminate the Public Employee Unions. Their primary purpose is to ensure the senior employees make the most money, receive the best positions and are secure in their employment. These goals are NOT aligned with cost effectively getting the most help to the people who need it. Pay for performance, not years and degrees.
2. Set hard knowledge attainment and/or poverty reduction targets that the bureaucracy managers must hit, and replace them if they don't. No more of these employment contracts where Superintendents get huge buy out clauses when they fail. Pay for performance, not degrees.
Truly helping kids requires multiple improvements by multiple groups of adults.
It is too bad that people like yourself can only fixate on one root cause and solution.
From the FED reserve report again...
"A few common themes emerge across these successful school districts and schools. First, schools are given greater autonomy. In New Orleans, the schools under the OPSB were replaced with independent schools that were directly accountable to the state’s RSD. In New York, the Promise Academy was given autonomy in implementing its own community and school programs. The report on high-achieving disadvantaged districts finds that school principals were given autonomy to lead, which helped attract, develop, and retain high-quality teachers.
Second, there is a focus on school quality. Research on the Promise Academy demonstrated that flexibility in teacher recruitment and retention combined with improvements in pedagogical methods led to better outcomes. A common theme in the high-performing disadvantaged districts study is a focus on school quality, including maximizing student learning time and using data and coaching to improve instruction.
Third, support services for students and their families correlate with enhanced education outcomes. Students in the Boston Connects program receive individualized services that are associated with gains in achievement test scores and reductions in dropout rates. Meanwhile, providing a variety of student and family supports is a key strategy to advancing student outcomes in the Harlem Children’s Zone.
These examples indicate that closing achievement gaps is challenging, but possible. "
OK, "here we go again." How do you propose to accomplish these disruptions of the "system"? My solution is vouchers for everybody, starting with all the kids in "failing" schools. That introduces competition for the money, and forces the schools to compete based on results, not a monopoly on "free," with a forced attendance.
And you keep focusing on that report. SO DO I. Notice that of the three, the first two are entirely within the purview of the school system, mainly allowing them the freedom to do what they think best improves student achievement, rather than government or union rules, restrictions, and mandates. The third is reasonably, but not necessarily, a "community" function. For example "individualized services" could be as simple as a tutor or "small group intervention." A school can offer lunches, or breakfast, or after school programs, or adult education, at its whim, and be effective. Right now there are some schools that "refer" students to government assistance, but the hurdles are large and the results not necessarily effective-- an indirect effect on education at best. That would be ANOTHER massive system that would have to be disrupted.
Here's the thing: If you want to close the achievement gap, start with those things which you can easily change and which most directly effect the achievement gap. "Improvements in pedagogical methods" seems like one of them.
Gee, the insults again? "multiple improvements by multiple groups of adults" doesn't sound like there IS a single root cause, nor solution. But solving a problem says you tackle the easy parts of a problem first. And I've always found it better to show people that there is an easy way and a hard way, and the easy way works better. Trying to mandate every minute of every child's school day from some "State Bored of Education" is the hard way.
How ‘Reading Instruction’ Fails Black And Brown Children
Jerry,
I am not sure how to overcome the bureaucrats and unions, but I hope it happens someday soon. And I am pretty certain that vouchers ARE NOT the answer.
And we the tax payers are already paying the people who I want to see improve their parenting skills. That improvement should be easy to promote if they want to keep receiving their checks, and they want to keep their kids.
Unfortunately you do not want to help the children in their early years... Remember one of my favorite sayings. "The Religious Right folks love babies until they clear the cervix, then they say the baby is someone else's problem." :-)
Laurie,
If phonics is the magic bullet and a slam dunk, why do you think local school boards, superintendents, schools, teachers, etc have not changed over? Or is there a down side that supporters are not mentioning?
My school could do much better at teaching reading but I think I am the only one that reads the research and notices that we could be doing it much better. I think many decision-makers are not knowledgeable about how to teach reading.
My recent link is how schools need to teach much more knowledge and vocabulary starting in the primary grades.
Laurie, THANK you. I found this:
"But there’s much more that education can do, right now, for our most vulnerable children that we simply haven’t tried." What would it take for all schools to do these things? What is the obstacle?
John- "if they want to keep receiving their checks, and they want to keep their kids." So, more severe coercion on people that you should be trying to help? And whom you will categorize as unworthy without ever knowing them?
And then you again slander me by suggesting that /I/ don't care? Eye, meet log.
Laurie,
It is pretty hard for me to believe that the districts, their curriculum researchers and teacher's are all idiots. Hereis a WAPO comparison for you.
Jerry,
I think you have missed the whole point over these 3+ years since I wrote How to Win the War on Poverty...
I am not out to help the parents, baby mamas, baby daddies, bureaucrats, teachers, social workers, unions, etc... (ie adults) They are adults and are to be held responsible for their role in raising and teaching the kids well. They are failing many of the kids...
I am out to help the children between birth and age 18.
I think I keep making that clear...
"There is a start... Now you Liberals and Conservatives can argue for your adult concepts while the unlucky kids continue to suffer..."
Where as you want to let many of them suffer for ~5 years and then blame the school system for not being unable to undo the damage inflicted on them.
Now if I am incorrect, please share with me how you propose we ensure?
- The fetus gets excellent pre-natal healthcare and nutrition
- The baby is delivered safely and does not leave the Mother in debt
- The parent(s) have affordable parenting classes and support
- The baby / toddler / pre-schooler lives in a safe stable home, relatively free of adverse childhood experiences
- the baby, toddler / pre-schooler gets good healthcare, nutrition and age appropriate education and socialization
If these things are not part of your proposed solution... You are one of these folks...
"The Religious Right folks love babies until they clear the cervix, then they say the baby is someone else's problem."
"I am not out to help the parents, baby mamas, baby daddies, bureaucrats, teachers, social workers, ..."
Do you ever read what you write?? You are condemning millions of good people trying their best because, in YOUR judgment, they are not performing to YOUR standards. And if you are not trying to help the adults, who is going to help the kids?? You, all by your lonesome?
Good citation, by the way, about reading. But if all teachers are not idiots, and Mississippi has succeeded in greatly improving reading scores, exactly what IS holding back MN schools?
My theory is this. We have a state DOE making all kinds of rules and regulations when what they should be doing is acting as a clearinghouse for disseminating best practices.
John, you are "pretty certain that vouchers are NOT the answer," but you think "school choice" is working great in MN?
Jerry,
Who are these "millions" I am condemning?
Do you think there are that many addicted and/or welfare Moms and baby daddies out there who want to make lots of babies and live off the dole? Please remember that my proposals do not change things for the vast majority of parent(s).
Well other than ensuring they have thorough sex education, easily accessible free birth control and cost effective parent / early ed.
School choice has a similar challenge as vouchers... They both make it easier for Lucky Kids and their families to flee Unlucky Kids... This is good for the Lucky Kids and bad for the Unlucky Kids... The big question our society faces is how to help the Unlucky Kids become Lucky Kids? (ie Few or no ACEs)
Now...
What is your plan to help our most at risk babies, toddlers and pre-schoolers?
Or are you aligned with the Religious Right that they are "someone else's problem"?
The "millions" you are condemning are the "parents, baby mamas, baby daddies, bureaucrats, teachers, social workers, ..." There are a LOT of those folks in those categories, and you seem completely opposed to helping them, so you are in fact condemning them to suffer in whatever miserable status quo you keep defending, your only solution to punish some of them, or all of them, it's hard to tell.
How to help the 0-5 crowd? Now you want to completely rebuild the entire welfare system AND overhaul society as a whole, before you will expect the schools to do the job they have said they alone can do and just pay us more?
And more insults to the Religious Right (whoever they are). I'm pretty sure they care far more for these kids, in real ways, than you do.
"School choice has a similar challenge as vouchers... They both make it easier for Lucky Kids and their families to flee Unlucky Kids..."
You have yet to explain how giving vouchers to ONLY unlucky kids (the ones in failing schools) is somehow an advantage to lucky kids. It is the ability for lucky parents to move away from those schools now, causing the problem you say. Vouchers simply level the playing field.
Most "parents, bureaucrats, teachers, social workers, ..." are doing good work and will not be impacted at all by my proposals.
So again. You and the Religious Right want to let the innocent babes keep suffering... Well you did help keep them stay safe in the womb... Oh I forgot, that was not for them but for your "people must bear the consequences of their sin" position. (ie about you)
Unfortunately I have never heard of a "vouchers only for unlucky kids" plan.
Remember that being an Unlucky Kid has more to do with ACE Scores than Schools.
" I have never heard of a "vouchers only for unlucky kids" plan." Really? AFAIK, I am the ONLY one ever to suggest the idea of universal vouchers, where every parent gets one. Even those who believe that it is the eventual best situation, where true competition produces innovation and improved quality at lower cost (which the current monopoly prevents), always talk about "starting" with those most harmed by the failing schools. It's basically every voucher plan out there, though somehow the word "voucher" has become a poison pill (I'm guessing because the educrats and unions don't like the competition). And if you are determined not to give parents "what they want," I suppose the millions who want a voucher (call it something else if you're hung up on the word) can just not help their kids, and it will be fine. ?-(
Of course they can help their kids. They can:
- Ensure they are ready for Kindergarten
- Move to a nicer neighborhood with fewer Unlucky Kids
- Open enroll to a school with fewer Unlucky Kids
- Sign up for a Charter or Magnet school with fewer Unlucky Kids
- Home school their children
- Send their kids to Private School with pretty much ZERO Unlucky Kids
Food for Thought
Now this is a disturbing piece about the real impact of vouchers
"Turning kids away
Unlike voucher programs in some other states, participating private schools in Indiana have the freedom to do what they've always done: admit or reject students based on their own guidelines, even if those students are using taxpayer-funded vouchers.
Behning defends that decision, saying it was important that schools retain their ability to be selective. "The one reason we let schools have some admissions criteria is we did not want to change the very fiber of those schools."
What qualifies as fiber?
A spokesperson for the Indiana Department of Education, Adam Baker, says "a private school can deny a student based on past academic performance or prior disciplinary action," among other criteria.
Some schools post GPA requirements on their websites. Struggling students need not apply. Ditto students with a suspension. This has raised fears among the state's public school leaders that private schools are cherry-picking."
"Behning's "fiber" isn't limited to academic performance or behavior. Some private schools also require parents to certify that they are members of the church that manages the school or to sign a statement of faith.
In its online admissions packet, Lighthouse Christian Academy in Bloomington lays out its expectations of students. It lists "behaviors prohibited in the Bible" to include "homosexual or bisexual activity or any form of sexual immorality" and "practicing alternate gender identity or any other identity or behavior that violates God's ordained distinctions between the two sexes, male and female."
The school then makes clear that, "in situations in which the home life violates these standards, LCA reserves the right, within its sole discretion, to refuse admission of an applicant or to discontinue enrollment of a student."
Well, since you are the one defining "unlucky kid" I suppose you can determine what is their predestined lot in life. I propose to you, then, that we not bother sending them to school because they cannot possibly benefit from it. School quality means nothing. Of course, if you actually wanted to decrease the "bad luck" these kids have, and not having a magic wand, can you propose something quicker and easier than helping them get an education that might lead to better adult outcomes?
"Of course they can help their kids. They can:"
Really? If most parents want what is best for their kids, as you have just admitted and contrary to what you have said elsewhere, then why have they not availed themselves of all these "opportunities"? Answer: they cannot. They are prevented from doing so, which is why they really, really, want a voucher or "opportunity scholarship" or what have you. And if a better education is available, whether through your suggested means or another, then aren't you de facto saying the schools they are in are bad, and could improve?
Oh well. Thankfully my kids were Lucky Kids.
There are 164 charter schools in Minnesota. 61 of these charters are in Mpls, giving parents a great deal of choice.
Laurie,
Unfortunately Jerry only has one primary focus...
How to get more money for K-12 Parochial Schools while allowing them to keep out Unlucky Kids?
He would likely love the Indiana method noted in the above sources.
He has not changed in 10+ years. Ignore the young and offer vouchers.
Your kids were lucky, so to h*!l with all the rest of them? I, through government, can't change all of society to help "the children," but the education system is wholly a creature of government and COULD change. Universal vouchers would create the environment that would promote that change because, as part of it, public schools would get the same autonomy private schools have, to innovate, which two of your three previous statements say are key. We don't offer vouchers for their own sake. We offer them because they offer a pathway to improved education for everybody. If by chance we make a few parents happy along the way, so be it.
Laurie, can everybody that wants a better school get access to one of these charters? Or are there some hurdles?
Here's something interesting. IF charter schools were available to all, ...
educating better
Some charters might have a waiting list, otherwise enrolling in a charter school is very easy.
Jerry,
My kids are Lucky Kids, which has nothing to do with their school.
Actually... Remember that we kept them in a struggling school district with a significant population of Unlucky Kids.
And they are Lucky Kids because their ACE score is ~ZERO
Apparently you did not read my sources again... Voucher schools get to "cherry pick" students where as "status quo publics" must take everyone... How does that in anyway seem like "fair competition"?
That had to be one of the stupidest pieces I have ever read. And by an openly biased economist of all things.
Let's compare Wayzata vs Minneapolis score while we are at it?
With no discussion as to the student body in either...
Laurie,
I agree the MN students are fortunate in the amount of choice they have.
About Jerry's link- I think some of the schools listed - KIPP, Success Academy, Explore Schools, Uncommon Schools, Achievement First- have had somewhat better results than traditional districts. They may attract and keep better students but I don't think their relative success can be totally dismissed.
Laurie,
What kind of Parent(s) do you think are willing to sign this agreement?
How do you think other schools if they only had kids with those Parent(s)?
"Parents’/Guardians’ Commitment
We fully commit to KIPP in the following ways:
• We will make sure our child arrives at KIPP by 7:25 am (Monday-Friday) or boards a KIPP bus at the scheduled time.
• We will make arrangements so our child can remain at KIPP until 5:00 pm (Monday - Thursday) and 4:00 pm on Friday.
• We will make arrangements for our child to come to KIPP on appropriate Saturdays at 9:15 am and remain until 1:05 pm.
• We will ensure that our child attends KIPP summer school.
• We will always help our child in the best way we know how and we will do whatever it takes for him/her to learn. This
also means that we will check our child’s homework every night, let him/her call the teacher if there is a problem with the
homework, and try to read with him/her every night.
• We will always make ourselves available to our children and the school, and address any concerns they might have. This
also means that if our child is going to miss school, we will notify the teacher as soon as possible, and we will carefully
read any and all papers that the school sends home to us.
• We will allow our child to go on KIPP field trips.
• We will make sure our child follows the KIPP dress code.
• We understand that our child must follow the KIPP rules so as to protect the safety, interests, and rights of all individuals
in the classroom. We, not the school, are responsible for the behavior and actions of our child.
• Failure to adhere to these commitments can cause my child to lose various KIPP privileges and can lead to my child
returning to his/her home school.
Signed: …………………………………………………"
Or as our local KIPP Parent Handbook mandates:
Family Engagement
In addition to the duties listed in the signed commitment to excellence form, parents are
expected to participate in their children’s learning in a variety of ways. We encourage parents to engage with the school community in the following ways:
• Attend a Fall or Winter family night event.
• Participate in the Parent/Teacher Organization. Look for flyers with details or sign up at
back to school night.
• Come visit – we have an open door policy! Stop at the front desk, let them know what
class you are visiting and get a visitors pass. Family members must be listed on the
authorized pick-up or emergency contact list to be allowed to visit a student during the
day. Note that in order to allow for a smooth transition into the start of the school year,
this open door policy begins Monday, September 11. Before that time, please reach out to
school staff if you plan to visit.
• Visit during the annual Spring Science Fair (KNSA only).
• Read the monthly newsletter to learn about important events at schools, student testing
dates and volunteer opportunities.
If a parent/guardian has a concern or disagreement, they should discuss the matter with the
teacher and attempt to resolve the disagreement through informal discussion. If there is no
resolution to the problem, the parent/guardian should then contact the office manager to set
up a time to meet with a school administrator. We will do our best to accommodate
parent/guardian schedules, but ask that you always call to set a specific meeting time.
Parent Teacher Conferences
Parents/guardians are required to come to school during parent teacher conferences to pick up their child’s report card. During parent teacher conferences, each parent/guardian will have the opportunity to set up a meeting to discuss the progress of his or her child with the child’s teachers. Parents/guardians will also problem-solve with the help of teachers to determine strategies to maximize the performance of his or her child.
For the 2017-2018 school year conferences will be held on the evenings of November 1st and 2nd, and March 21st and 22nd. You will receive additional details on signing up for a conference time in the school newsletter and additional papers sent home.
So yes I agree that some schools will do better...
Those with a majority of kids who's parent(s) are absolutely dedicated to their child's successful education.
I mean why do you think the kids of many Asian Parent(s) do so well?
The child's academic success is a high priority for the whole family.
And because lucky kids succeed regardless of the school, we don't have to change the schools to serve the unlucky kids that are NOT succeeding? Doesn't that lead to huge gaps? And how do you explain schools where minority kids do BETTER than the average white kid in public schools? Where the "gap" is actually backwards of MN?
How about this: "I agree ANY school could do better."
Jerry,
You are the one who sees this as a race issue. I very much disagree as always.
This is about how fortunate or unfortunate a child is.
The question therefore as always is how do we as a society help the unfortunate babies, toddlers, pre-schoolers and school agers to become more fortunate in their home and school life?
I am not the one making "the gap" a racial issue; it is the fundamental definition that is racial. It is the disparity between the achievement of MN black kids and MN white kids that is the worst in the nation. So, telling these black kids they are "unlucky" for being born black is, ... what's the word?
As for the question, here is the answer: give these "unfortunate" kids an education that gives them a real shot at a better life than what the unfortunate circumstances of their birth might otherwise condemn them to, and they will pass that on to their kids. They might even become a Supreme Court Justice. Schools are supposed to "break the cycle of poverty" rather than using poverty as an excuse for their own failures.
Race is NOT the causal factor unless you became a "Racism is everything Liberal" recently.
I can tell you approximately how the kids in a school are doing without knowing the racial make up of the students.
Causal Factor List 1
Causal Factor List 2
Causal Factor List 3
This goes with Causal Factor List 3
It doesn't make a difference what the cause IS, unless what you propose to do to eliminate that educational disparity is to remedy the cause of it based on race and no other. That is not possible, because this gap is purely in educational achievement, and by definition based on race. Of course, if you are willing to say that every black child is "unlucky" and every white child "lucky," but of course that would be... what's the word?
The only explanation that makes any sense here is that, somehow, black children are treated differently within the school system, or that at least poor black children are. And again, in MN that is more true than in the rest of the nation, and that simply should not be. We're supposed to be better than that.
Actually you apparently misread the title of this post.
The Poor Kids are Screwed :-(
And more appropriately it could / should say:
The Unlucky Kids are Screwed :-(
Because some Poor Kids are Lucky Kids
Just as some White, Black, Hispanic, Native American, etc Kids are Lucky Kids.
Again with racism talk, Moose is going to be so proud of you.
Please note that a lot minority kids do make it through, and some white kids do not.
MN 4 year graduation numbers
Native American: 51%
Pacific Islander: 63.0%
Asian: 85.5%
Hispanic: 66.3
Black: 64.8
White: 88.1
2 or More: 71.0%
Poor: 79.9%
Limited English: 64.7%
Spec Ed: 61.2%
Unfortunately the rates seem pretty well aligned with the Non-Marital Birth Rates Ratios than Anything
OK, but the real numbers we have are for the government-defined "education gap," and that is based on race. You can't claim that poverty is responsible for school failure, and then PROVE, by government statistics, that school failure is the result of race alone. If the schools cannot at least fix the racial disparity, the chances of them fixing all the other potential contributing factors, in their infinite variety and impact, seem doomed. After all, haven't "we" (government) been trying to do that for 50 years?
The fact that some poor kids succeed, or that many may succeed in a few schools, simply says that the principal determinant of a child's education is giving them a good education. Let's do that first, for all of them.
The reason the government defines the gap by race is because it is easy and aligns to the Liberal and Your Systemic Racism theory.
I have no desire to put the whole burden of failed families, neglected and abused children, impoverished households, homeless families, parent(s) who had terrible role models, parent(s) who are addicts, etc on the backs of Teachers and the Educational system. That is your thing.
The war on poverty part 1 failed miserably because they handed out money with few expectations on the recipients.
I think we should be able to learn and improve.
OK, while you are working on completely redoing the "Great Society" that government has screwed up for 50 years, how about we get the low-hanging fruit of simply doing for education everywhere what we already know works for some kids, in some schools? The government defines the gap the way it wants. It is a point of information, and whether the cause of that gap is overt or covert racism does not matter. What matters is that we have a yardstick by which to measure the schools' effectiveness on an identifiable group of students who are not succeeding.
How about instead of fixing the blame, we fix the problem? The education system, you are correct, cannot solve the problem all by themselves. They can, however, do FAR better than they are, and I have no desire to keep offering them excuses to never "learn and improve" themselves.
I am still looking for the name of that "magic school" who compensates for failed families, neglected and abused children, impoverished households, homeless families, parent(s) who had terrible role models, parent(s) who are addicts, etc.
Are you willing to share that yet?
The problem I have with your proposed solution is that it segregates the Unlucky Kids even further. Because the schools have different admission and retention requirements
"Parents’/Guardians’ Commitment
We fully commit to KIPP in the following ways:
• We will make sure our child arrives at KIPP by 7:25 am (Monday-Friday) or boards a KIPP bus at the scheduled time.
• We will make arrangements so our child can remain at KIPP until 5:00 pm (Monday - Thursday) and 4:00 pm on Friday.
• We will make arrangements for our child to come to KIPP on appropriate Saturdays at 9:15 am and remain until 1:05 pm.
• We will ensure that our child attends KIPP summer school.
• We will always help our child in the best way we know how and we will do whatever it takes for him/her to learn. This
also means that we will check our child’s homework every night, let him/her call the teacher if there is a problem with the
homework, and try to read with him/her every night.
• We will always make ourselves available to our children and the school, and address any concerns they might have. This
also means that if our child is going to miss school, we will notify the teacher as soon as possible, and we will carefully
read any and all papers that the school sends home to us.
• We will allow our child to go on KIPP field trips.
• We will make sure our child follows the KIPP dress code.
• We understand that our child must follow the KIPP rules so as to protect the safety, interests, and rights of all individuals in the classroom. We, not the school, are responsible for the behavior and actions of our child.
• Failure to adhere to these commitments can cause my child to lose various KIPP privileges and can lead to my child returning to his/her home school.
Signed: …………………………………………………"
"I am still looking for the name of that "magic school" who compensates for failed families,..."
You are not looking very hard. I've said several times: any school outside MN, any MN school except the inner city, any of several charter schools doing better than similar publics, most private or parochial schools, and of course those exemplary schools like Promise Academies, etc.
And you keep griping about a school setting expectations and requirements, but because a school doesn't take troublemakers, you want to use that as an excuse why NOBODY should be allowed to go there?! If the lack of expectations and discipline are problems the public schools have (that "private" does not), then why do we not reduce those problems in the public schools?
Part of the idea of universal vouchers, besides allowing public schools time to become competitive and the probability that competition would come first into areas with failing schools, is the idea that ALL schools would play by the same voucher rules. That would mean things like a public school informing a parent that, unless their child's continual disruption ended, they would be refusing the voucher and the nearest alternative school, designed for behavioral problem students, would be another $3000/year on top of the voucher.
Jerry,
Why would the parent(s) of an unlucky troubled kid pay any money to send their kid to a special school?
And you are such a hypocrite... I have proposed allowing schools to make parent(s) accountable for:
- coming to conferences
- ensuring children are clean and fed
- ensuring the children are at school on time
- ensuring homework is done
- their children's behavior
And you have said that would be terrible and that the schools have no right to "grade" the parent(s) or enforce negative consequences...
Now you say that is okay... What are you smoking? :-)
Either I'm not expressing myself well or you are being obtuse. Parents are required to send their kids to school, by law. If disruptive students were disciplined with, as a last resort, forcing their parents to pay more for their ill-behaved child, you would have in the public schools what you complain is now available only in the privates. And with vouchers, it wouldn't matter if the alternative school might cost LESS, the parent would have a choice. What do you have against choice? Point being to allow competition, and to introduce the idea of schools setting rules that enhance learning, rather than allowing them all the excuses in your long litany for why they can't do their job. Are you really going to defend the "racial equity" form of discipline in the St. Paul schools? Is it conducive to learning?
So again...
What would you do if the parent(s) choose to not comply or had no money to pay extra tuition?
"Parents are required to send their kids to school, by law." Jerry
As for the racial equity model, I thought you were the new found believer in systemic racism and equal outcomes. :-)
Personally I am a fan of tough love and keeping the classrooms under control. And if you want to reduce problems withing certain student populations, invest in them earlier.
Finally, I am a fan of fair and equal competition. Unfortunately vouchers "ARE NOT" that.
You are not going to force all schools to accept and keep all kids. So KIPP and it's peers will continue to cherry pick the hard working lucky kids while sending the Unlucky kids back to his/ her home school.
• We understand that our child must follow the KIPP rules so as to protect the safety, interests, and rights of all individuals in the classroom. We, not the school, are responsible for the behavior and actions of our child.
• Failure to adhere to these commitments can cause my child to lose various KIPP privileges and can lead to my child returning to his/her home school.
Signed: …………………………………………………"
"What would you do..." is simply the wrong question. The law specifies the penalty (I assume) for parents who disobey the compulsory attendance law. It simply makes no sense that public (or private) schools should have to take any kid, no matter how disruptive or even dangerous he/she is.
"I thought you were the new found believer in systemic racism..." I have no idea how you came to that notion, but let me help you. I do not believe there is a systemic racism at work. I DO believe the real data that says black kids do far more poorly, on average, than white kids do. IOW, there is an achievement gap, and in MN it is the highest in the nation. Racism is the easy explanation, but saying that SOME schools are not as effective at teaching a particular demographic is far more correct. Poverty and its ills tends to affect black people disproportionately and that explains part of the gap, but does NOT excuse the failure of the schools to do better, and we must NOT accept those excuses. In schools that are continually failing by objective measures, parents should be given a voucher for the full amount, and which they can take to any other school. Schools should not be rewarded for destroying young lives.
"Finally, I am a fan of fair and equal competition. Unfortunately vouchers 'ARE NOT' that." Two things wrong with that statement: First, vouchers ARE competition, and the educracy will fight tooth and nail to avoid that. Even now, limited competition makes the public schools look bad, so every effort is made to burden them with the same stupid rules and requirements the publics have.
new book
And that is the second thing: If you allow vouchers to provide /unfair/ competition by not having to follow the stupid rules, why not release the public schools from the stupid rules in the first place?
I think you have forgotten that the courts have weighed in on this. And they determined that the schools will take every child, no matter their challenge / cost.
Do you think school administrators keep all these very expensive unlucky kids for the fun of it? That they determine "those stupid rules"?
Does this mean you believe that Black children can be expelled and suspend more often because of personal / home issues... And yet academic achievement should not vary due to personal / home issues?
Very interesting, but nowhere in that list of cases do I see anything listing disruptive behavior in the normal classroom as something covered by Special Education law. On the one hand, I think many of these unlucky (I'll just use your unfortunate term, it saves time) kids could benefit from an "IEP" where they get extra learning opportunities, and on the other hand, I think that the special education rules go too far in that they subtract resources that could go to other children and do not necessarily create a substantial cost-benefit to the SE child.
School administrators do NOT create those stupid rules, and that's the problem. Why have stupid rules in the first place? You've previously listed the fact that local autonomy are two of the three main contributors to improved results-- erasing the gap.
And I don't even know where you're going with this. I believe school discipline should be based on violations of clear discipline policy, not on race, as if that were not obvious and needed to be stated. But apparently it is not obvious to some crazies running the current education system. On the other hand, it is obvious to me that there are two main sources of discipline problems in the schools. The first is high achieving children not being challenged enough-- idle hands and all that-- and the second is kids being challenged beyond their ability-- being "left behind." Fixing those two things WOULD result in academic achievement improving for everybody, especially without the discipline problems that result from not educating each child appropriately, whatever that means.
Jerry,
If a child misbehaves enough, they will be deemed to have an emotional or behavioral disability. I mean why else would a a 7 year old hit other kids, swear at Teachers, attack Teachers, etc?
These are not just bored kids passing notes.
The rules are there because for centuries schools did let the unlucky kids pass through or drop out. Then apparently our society and courts decided to protect all children from ineffectual / neglectful parent(s) and schools.
I get the idea because on one hand you say that:
- different kids will have different behavioral / discipline outcomes.
- different kids should have the same academic outcomes.
While denying the whole time that the child's home life is the primary causal factor of their behavioral and academic problems.
Ah, there you go again, blaming parents and by extension, absolving the schools of all responsibility. How about this: You write up a test that we give to every parent and, if they do not exhibit the proper attitudes, we just let them keep the kid home from school. Since they are incapable of learning anything, and may disrupt the other kids, that solves the problem, right? And it saves the State money!
You are disagreeing with me that each child is a little different and must be taught in a way that works for that child. I can assume therefore that you believe either that every child is the same and the current "one size fits all" schooling works for everybody, OR, that a child's demographics entirely determine their educational outcome.
The primary contributor to a good education is a good teacher. Look it up.
Actually my position has not changed in years, if we want to help kids succeed...
We need to hold the educational system, their parent(s) and the social services system accountable for doing their job well.
You as usual want to "absolve parent(s) of all responsibility". Which I never understand?
Well I stand corrected... If it is a non-standard public school...
Then you are fine with them holding the parent(s) accountable.
"• We understand that our child must follow the KIPP rules so as to protect the safety, interests, and rights of all individuals in the classroom. We, not the school, are responsible for the behavior and actions of our child.
• Failure to adhere to these commitments can cause my child to lose various KIPP privileges and can lead to my child returning to his/her home school.
Signed: …………………………………………………"
KIPP PARENT CONTRACT
"Well I stand corrected... If it is a non-standard public school...
Then you are fine with them holding the parent(s) accountable."
As usual, you are doubly wrong. First, I want the same opportunity for public schools as for privates, insofar as being able to set discipline policies and reject vouchers for the very few incorrigible kids. And then, I do not want the schools to "hold the parents accountable." Parents, voucher in hand, will hold the SCHOOL responsible for results, and will take that voucher down the road if not. And by having that freedom to choose, parents will assume responsibility for their own choices, recognize the opportunity it provides and, with rare exception, do whatever they can to seize that opportunity.
That is the difference between us. You wish to impose responsibility on parents in exchange for a supposed "education" they know will fail their child anyway. That's contrary to human nature. Doing it by giving them real opportunity and the means to exercise it turns that around and works WITH human nature.
Jerry,
The courts will never allow status quo Public Schools to refuse students for most any reason, unless maybe they are in jail. Then they are someone else's problem.
Of course you want to allow the schools to "hold the parents accountable." That is why you support schools that have contracts that the Parents need to sign before their child is allowed in the door, with a consequence of expulsion.
Otherwise you would require schools to accept and keep every student that applies. (as long as they have space) Kind of like the status quo public schools.
I point out that PRIVATE schools may have any parent contracts they like, and that parents are willing to sign. Since they are paying the school out of pocket, a "sales contract" is essential and, in exchange, the school guarantees a certain level of educational excellence. It's a two-way, voluntary exchange.
But poor parents are forced by law to send their kids to the "free" public schools and, in exchange, are guaranteed absolutely nothing (promises implied but not honored). The public schools accept every student, regardless, because they get paid the same rather the student learns anything or not.
Now, simply compare the incentives between the two. Parents with means voluntarily share the responsibility with the school of educating the child, on the one hand, versus parents lacking the means forced to "buy" from a government-paid monopoly that has no responsibility for results. It's almost like a public school education is worth what you pay for it.
Jerry,
When you are willing to make the Privates and Charters take and keep every student / family who applies, we can discuss this further.
As long as you want to let the Privates and Charters cherry pick their students / families, there is not point to this exchange.
Just a reminder, good private schools get all the money without the challenging expensive kids.
In fact they have... Interviews, Testing, Transcripts and Referrals
I wonder why it is such an Excellent and Beautiful school. :-)
I love the photo on the admissions page...
They must have used the only 2 Black girls in the whole school. :-)
Since their student body is ~1% Black.
How about this: when you allow the public schools to set and enforce discipline policies that include multiple interventions with the student and with parent(s) before expulsion, then you can complain about the private schools taking in only students willing to learn. Denying them that choice and opportunity seems counterproductive, tyrannical and cruel. So long as the public schools will NOT make any effort to teach academics AND appropriate behavior, by appropriate means, nothing is going to change because your "social engineering" outside the classroom is a pipe dream. Not unreasonable on paper, but not as a practical and direct manner. You want to improve academic achievement, you do those things that improve academic achievement directly and immediately.
And again, you are focused on the 1% or less of students who are disruptive, without correcting the failures of the current school system for the other 99%. A district near here has a discipline policy, and they have a special school for those who repeatedly demonstrate they cannot meet those standards. It has bars on the windows, among other things. It works, and doesn't cost the parents extra. Problem solved.
That is a whole lot of opinion with nothing to back it up.
I am on to this post
Oh, yes, YOUR usual opinion. My opinion is based on nothing except simple common sense and a basic understanding of human nature. Oh, and personal experience. Plus your own referenced scientific studies. You declare that vouchers are NOT the solution, when everything seems to point to that as a way to work with human nature and against the failing status quo. At least your are confident in your opinion.
At least we agree on one thing... :-)
"At least you are confident in your opinion."
And my opinion is backed up by common sense, a simple understanding of human nature, personal experience, scientific studies, and actual real-world examples. Your opinion is that we should "hold parents and schools accountable" without any real examples of how to do that, or evidence that some mandatory "accountability" imposed from above can work. Yes, the kids are screwed, UNLESS we allow and enable parents to exercise their personal responsibility for their kids' education, and ALLOW (and reward) schools to do what they know is best for their students. The few exceptions you dwell on should not prevent us from helping everybody else do better.
The "few exceptions"...
- 437,000 kids in foster care
- 1+ million cases of abuse and neglect confirmed each year
- and Lord only knows how many non-reported situations
- non-marital birth rates Black: 72%, Native American: 65%, Latino: 53%, White: 30%
You have a funny definition of few.
And you have a very dim view of real human beings, that NONE of these kids will ever be educable, regardless of the school? Remember, too, that there are 50 million kids in the country. So can we at least get a better education for the 98% who are not part of the few you want to worry endlessly about?
I think your 2 Million is quite a bit too low.
Apparently there are ~13 million kids living in poverty.
Apparently this is ~20% of the kids.
So let's just assume that 50% of these kids struggle with unstable homes, food shortages, live in high crime areas, poorly educated parent(s), etc... That would mean 6.5 million kids are unlucky or very unlucky.
And guess where the majority of these kids live and which schools they attend?
So let's say that there are 50 million kids:
- 35 million are not in poverty and are doing fine with their family and schools. (ie no changes needed)
- 8.5 million are in poverty but they have good capable parent(s), but are trapped in schools with a lot of really "Unlucky Kids" and not great personnel / systems.
- that leaves 6.5 million who have unqualified or neglectful parent(s), and they are trapped in schools with struggling kids and not great personnel / systems.
So should we enable the 8.5 million to take their school funding and allow them to set up or join schools?
If we pull the funding, what happens to the 6.5 million?
It is an interesting problem.
I just used your math-- 1/2 million foster kids and 1 million abused kids, that's less than 2 million , so about 4% are uneducable (assuming NONE of them are educable, which is a terrible way to look at any kid), so we should try our best to educate the 96% left over which, according to MDE statistics, somewhere between 20% and 60% of those are not being educated well. Unacceptable. Even moreso if you want to throw your 8.5 million in poverty into the "ineducable" category, which is a far MORE terrible way to look at any kid, let alone a massive demographic class of them.
So, why would we exclude 6.5 million kids from a program--"opportunity scholarships," let's call them-- that would make their lives better? And why would we exclude the other 8.5 million, or for that matter, the 35 million? Really, NOBODY in a failing school can succeed? And everybody NOT in a failing school does? That belies the reality, as well as common sense and the desirable state of affairs. Start with those in failing schools, whoever they may be. Combined with the time it takes to identify a failing school and for real competition to spring up, the public school will have time (remember the new autonomy they will get) to improve enough to retain their students and the funding that goes with them. If not, they will "go out of business" and we will at least begin to salvage some young lives that would otherwise be sacrificed to the status quo.
Please notice that is 1,000,000+ children PER YEAR....
And I think the 6.5 million can be helped to learn if:
- we hold their parent(s) to normal standards of parenting
(especially if we are already paying a lot of their household bills)
- we help / enforce the children and parent(s) to learn starting at birth
- we hold the educational and social service systems accountable
(ie weaken unions and bureaucracies)
As noted previously, your plan leaves the unlucky and troubled kids in their local school at even higher densities than today with less funding.
This is not helping them... It is dooming them to failure.
As for the 8.5 million, they are mostly doing okay in the schools. If not the failure rate would be higher.
Just a reminder: the MN High School grad rate is apparently ~83%...
You don't understand the plan, obviously. If we give all those in failing schools a voucher, and all the kids in that failing school USE the voucher to attend a better school, how can we possibly "leave behind" the "unlucky" kids? And do you think that losing even 10% of their students (and funding) might encourage the local public school to do better, even for the "unlucky" kids that you think cannot possibly learn?
And the graduation rate for free/reduced lunch kids is 71%. Is that OK? Remember the stated State goal is a 90% average grad rate and a minimum 85% for all demographics. For THIS year. And while MPS has made progress over the last few years, I'm not certain that grad rate is the correct measure, especially since the DFL legislature dropped the grad standards requirement.
To me the better measure is the MCA tests, and those seem unchanged over the years, with whites achieving about 75% proficiency and blacks at 18%. So I guess the "black kids are screwed" too?
I don't think you understand, the parent(s) of Unlucky Kids have a hard time just making it through their day. Signing their kids up for a school that may or may not be better is not going to make the list of to do's...
Unfortunately it is not just the Black Kids who have ineffectual Parent(s) and Schools...
Thus the post name.
"The Poor Kids are Screwed :-("
So Minneapolis schools has been losing the smart, well to do, lucky kids/families and their funding for decades... As these peoples ran from the poverty, crime, and unlucky kids.
Why do you think things will change for those kids if even more lucky kids and their money depart?
"Signing their kids up for a school that may or may not be better is not going to make the list of to do's..." I see. Poor people don't love their kids, don't care about their kids, don't want what is better for their kids. They were irresponsible just HAVING the kid in the first place and haven't learned anything since. I would certainly hate to have your dismal opinion of my fellow human beings.
Yes, families that can afford to leave those schools do so, on a regular basis. And yet those that cannot afford to leave stay. Why do you think that is? What do you think would happen if you allowed EVERY parent to have that choice?
I am sure the parent(s) of the unlucky kids (6.5 mil) want many things... Maybe to have a better job, more money, to kick an addiction, to escape an abusive significant other, to have a home and food in the fridge, to better control their behaviors / emotions, to have better childcare, to not fear crime, etc. However for whatever reason they struggle.
Please note that I am certain that the parents of the 8.5 million kids would love to have their children in communities / schools with less crime, more resources, fewer special needs kids, etc.
I think the 8.5 million would leave their unlucky peers and the 6.5 million unlucky kids would suffer even worse... And then you would blame the local schools for failing even worse. :-(
Remember that Mpls and like schools schools were great until many of the great, smart, wealthy, etc families moved to Wayzata and other similar communities.
You have the equation backwards. Those smart, wealthy parents did not leave the excellent Minneapolis schools to find better schools in the suburbs. They left the Minneapolis schools that were already failing to educate. That left the schools to those who cannot afford better, and those schools never GOT better. Make up your mind. Do you want to blame the parents who could afford a choice for making a choice, or blame the parents who could NOT afford a choice for not making a choice? How about blaming the public school system for not OFFERING a (competitive) choice to everybody?
Why do you think the LA teachers union insists on a charter school moratorium before they can open the public schools?
Maybe poor families struggle to have all the nice things, but the State should and could be giving their kids a good, FREE education.
The "Haves" left the communities, not just the schools.
Good point. Good schools tend to draw good neighbors. Poor schools get whoever is left behind, and then don't make "things" better by giving the kids a pathway out of poverty, through education. Isn't that what the schools are supposed to do?
It makes me wonder what would happen if a "really good" private, voucher-funded private school would open up next to a failing public school. The students would start achieving, students and parents would get some hope and, would the community around it change, do you think?
Oh well, this is going no where as usual. :-(
Certainly not until you answer the question.
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