Wednesday, February 15, 2023

SD Takes Choice From Parents

Blocks gender affirming care. So much for "small" government and Parent's rights... 😒

61 comments:

jerrye92002 said...

There are no transgender kids, so your concern for them is sadly misplaced. Or are you saying that child abuse is OK and the State has no role in stopping it?

John said...

No transgender kids... Source please.

Transgender Kids

You usually are a big proponent of Parental rights... And yet here you think Big Government knows better than the child, their parents and the doctors. It is so strange...

jerrye92002 said...

Source? Simple common sense. A baby is delivered and the doctor says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Doctor does not say, "let's wait and see what they decide." For years we have been told that sexual stereotypes are a social construct, but now we are being told that biological sex is a social construct and that is ridiculous. There are no "transgender kids" to speak of. 95+% of kids who experience gender dysphoria eventually accept their sex, and the rest are mentally ill. The problem is we do not allow for effeminate boys or "tomboys" any more, but insist they have to switch over completely. Besides, it's trendy now, and some folks are making big bucks encouraging this nuttiness, complete with disfiguring healthy bodies.

We have laws against female genital mutilation; it is not a parental choice. You can't pour scalding hot water on your toddler. I think Big Government SHOULD be stepping on "parents rights" in such cases. Don't you?

John said...

I think you should do more research and less "common sensing".

More Info

I do agree that there is some confusion and maybe even peer pressure among teens that parents and doctors need to deal with. However I certainly do not think that government mandates based on religious right mantra is the answer.

Please remember that I truly believe in citizens rights and freedoms, unlike Religious Right folks like yourself.

Have you accepted yet the Gay and Lesbian people were created as they are by God yet?

Or do you believe they are sinners?

jerrye92002 said...

Wow, loaded language much? I believe there are two sexes, created by the biological imperative for diversity and evolution. Any other belief (or twaddle) is non-scientific and non-sensical. In Nature, there are never more than two sexes, and only very rarely fewer.

I do not accept that gays and lesbians were "made that way." Every person is born with the sexual equipment for reproduction. That some people choose to not use it correctly, or develop "same-sex attraction," (certainly not uncommon, even understandable) is a mental aberration. I certainly don't think they should be mistreated, denied counseling to change, nor, as minors, pushed into harmful chemical or surgical treatments to promote their delusions (or those of others).

John said...

So no religion involved in your intolerant position?


If parts are all that matter, if a man loses his testicles and penis in an accident. Is he any less of a man?

My view is being a man is a lot more than just having the parts. :-O So he continues to be what he believes he is.

John said...


"mental aberration" :-O

Your ego and condecending perspectives are always somewhat shocking to see written.

Oh well. Apparently many species of mammals suffer from similar "defects"... :-O

John said...

An Interesting Piece

John said...

Just a little different mix of hormones at the right time, and Jerry could have preferred men's butts to women's. :-O :-)

The reality is that variation is rampant in nature... So we might as well accept, respect and support the people as they were created...

I don't remember Jesus telling us to only love neighbors who looked and acted like ourselves...

jerrye92002 said...

Once again you deny the obvious, obfuscate reality, and perpetuate your own delusions with magical thinking (and ad hominem).

Just to point it out for you:
--No, there is no religion involved, and my position is NOT "intolerant." My position is rational, logical, and common sense. There are two sexes.
--Yes, male and female brains are different, but that is a set of overlapping (presumably Bell) curves. Hard pressed to say there should be another 72 points on that continuum. And yet this quote, "sexual orientation is an evolutionary trait" is amazing. The simple fact is that homosexuality runs counter to the survival of the species and so MUST be evolutionary dead ends. Homosexuals cannot reproduce, they must recruit to continue to exist, and that strikes me as morally wrong. You want to be gay, go ahead, but keep it to yourself.
--Yes, "a little bit different mix of hormones" and Jerry would be Geraldine, but NOT some third or fourth or other sex entirely!

This whole nonsense is logically preposterouse. "LGBTQ" is a laughable appellation for a group which cannot exist. Lesbian and Gays, sure, they exist, but if you insist they are "born that way" then they cannot change, and yet people do. It is why people marry, have kids, and then suddenly discover they are gay, or why counseling sometimes converts a gay person to straight (unless wacko liberals insist on banning medical choices). Then you have Bisexuals, which says that behavior can change, that you don't have to be gay or lesbian or straight, but what happened to "born that way"? Then there is "Trans" which simply, again, denies biological reality. It is no longer about behavior, but physical attributes, and nothing is going to change an XX to an XY, or vice versa. Finally, there is "Questioning." This is the strangest of all, IMHO. If you don't know what sex you are, look in your underpants. Don't ask us to blindly accept what you yourself do not know.

You keep saying we must accept people as they are. How about a little reciprocity on that?

John said...

Only you and the other religious right folks are trying to legislate "what people are"...


I don't see anyone working to censor books on men, women and heterosexuals.

I don't see anyone trying to force heteros to be homos.

I don't see anyone trying to force straight folks to be trans.


Only the supposed party of small government is hypocritical to pass all these big government laws.

jerrye92002 said...

And I don't see anyone even vaguely resembling these "religious right" strawpersons you keep using as your sole argument against simple common sense.

Two things: 1) you seem to be arguing that anything parents decide to do to or for their children is OK, EXCEPT allowing them to choose a school, and 2) Your headline could read "MN takes choice from parents" because it is now, or soon to be, illegal for parents to seek medical treatment (therapy) for a child's sexual orientation. In fact, in some states it is, or soon will be, illegal for parents to try to prevent their child's physical mutilation!

John said...

As I said, your EGO is HUGE as always...

You apparently know better than the child, the doctor and the parents...

I do not think you answered my question. Is a human who loses their penis and testicles still a man? Rationale?

jerrye92002 said...

OK, you have confirmed item 1 above. If a parent decides to pour scalding water on their toddler, that's OK by you. If they choose female genital mutilation (because they are "religious right" in their culture) contrary to law, that's OK with you, too. What if they want therapy for "unwanted same-sex attraction"? How about incest? And if parents do not properly feed, clothe, house, and intellectually stimulate their kid so that he/she is ready for school, THAT is suddenly OK with you?

"A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds"-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

John said...

No...

You apparently know better than the child, the doctor and the parents...
These Doctors are licensed professionals, not religious pedophile Priests. :-O :-)

Thankfully there are many states that are moving to protect the personal freedoms of their citizens.

I do not think you answered my question. Is a human who loses their penis and testicles still a man? Rationale?

jerrye92002 said...

And you apparently believe the parents know better than common sense legal restrictions, such as those surrounding child abuse, child exploitation, denial of proper medical care, but NOT the "freedom" to raise the child "ready for school."

Yes. XY genetics. How about the flip side: If I call a penis a leg, how many legs does a man have?

John said...

Again... Apparently you believe you know more than the licensed medical and psychological professionals with you "common sense". I hope you never had a child that was gay, lesbian or Trans.

Parents are free to raise their children ready for school. Unfortunately many do not take the responsibility seriously.

Ah so now it is about genetics, not parts? Not much common sense in genetics.

jerrye92002 said...

What do my children have to do with common sense definitions that have stood for millennia, even before humans--a /woman/ named "Lucy" stood up on the plains of Africa? (been there)

Not much common sense in DENYING the science of genetics, either, or the fact that external genitalia are a pretty good way of telling the difference. I notice you didn't answer my question: How many legs does a man have?

You have long and loudly advocated government interference in the way parents raise their children, to make them "school ready," and even to deny them the freedom to have children at all! You firmly believe, as I do, that child abuse is criminal, and that child sexual abuse is perhaps more so. So why would you EVER actually defend the idea that parents, crazy as they might be, would be allowed to sexually abuse and mutilate a perfectly healthy child-- perhaps for Munchausen by proxy?

John said...

Again only you Religious Righters see helping children through their strife and confusion as mutilation.

The AMA sees it very differently.

John said...

Threats to Hospitals

John said...

Doctors Undersatand the Risks of Ignoring Children

jerrye92002 said...

Removing healthy breasts, penis, uterus, testes is mutilation, is it not? How about chemically postponing natural puberty, with long-term and unknown side effects, especially when 95% of gender dysphoria disappears naturally after puberty?

What kind of monster are you to demand that these confused children be mutilated without parental consent? Where are these vaunted "parental rights" you seek? How about "do no harm"?

40 US states outlaw Female Genital Mutilation of youngsters. Why would you support violation of the law, in fact OR in spirit?

John said...

Where do you think doctors do this treatment without parental consent? Source?

The laws you are supporting are taking this complicated decision away from the Parents and Doctors, and giving it to politicians who do not know the child.

At least the DEMs admit that they like government control.

Unfortunately hypocrites like yourself say you support small government and citizens rights while trying to make government bigger and taking away the rights and freedoms of citizens.

jerrye92002 said...

"Where do you think doctors do this treatment without parental consent? Source?"

In Minnesota, if Walz and Flanagan have their way. They have said so, publicly and openly. And they seem happy to do it, removing parents' rights. Is that really what you advocate?

"...taking away the rights and freedoms of citizens." There you go again, so I must ask: Do you have the right to commit murder? Assault? Do you have the absolute freedom to mutilate a child, even your own? You are confusing "rights" with "wrongs." Government should protect rights, and prevent wrongs. It is not up to you to define child mutilation according to your own whim.

John said...

Again where is your source.

Please note that you are the one at odds with the USA's medical and psychiatric associations. As I showed you before.

You want to force these children and parents to conform to your religious views, even though it kills many of them. :-(

It is sad how you believe you know better than the people living the issue

John said...

It is interesting that MN is now a safe haven for individual freedoms and rights.

Maybe the GOP will force me to keep voting DEM... :-O

jerrye92002 said...

"Again where is your source."

For what, Flanagan's widely-publicized statement? Governor Walz's signing of the "kidnapping bill" that allows non-parents from other states to bring kids here to be castrated? Read the news!

I am not the only one "at odds" with ANYBODY who claims that mutilating children on a whim is a good idea. People do not die of gender dysphoria and only rarely of the sole factor of dysphoria-induced suicide, especially when 95% of kids outgrow it. Suicides, or at least deep regret, tend to occur in those who HAVE transitioned. Look it up. "Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers."

It is maddening how you believe something that just isn't true and want to allow murder and child abuse in the name of "freedom." And knock off that "religious right" nonsense. I'm talking simple scientific truth and common sense. Try it.

John said...

You know how to post links...

Support your craziness with sources...

If you have forgotten

John said...

Food for Thought

jerrye92002 said...

Do you believe only what you can find some "source" to support? Do you ever search for contrary information or is your confirmation bias that strong? Is it ever possible for you to use your own common sense and knowledge to arrive at, at least an opinion, if not a definitive conclusion? To change sex is scientifically and biologically impossible, so why are you trying so hard to convince me it is essential medical care rather than unnecessary and dangerous child mutilation? What proof can you possibly offer?

I quoted a source: "Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers." If you don't believe that source, prove it wrong.

John said...

My "source" is pretty much every main stream medical and psycholical organization in the USA.

What makes a person feel that they are a man / woman seems to not be their parts.

If you lost your parts or your chromosomes changed, could you see yourself as a woman?

Or is your sense of being a man more than just your parts?

Why this is not a political issue, too complicated

Jerry's Cherry Picking Source?


John said...

Original Source

Abstract
Context
The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.

Objective
To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.

Design
A population-based matched cohort study.

Setting
Sweden, 1973-2003.

Participants
All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973–2003. Random population controls (10∶1) were matched by birth year and birth sex or reassigned (final) sex, respectively.

Main Outcome Measures
Hazard ratios (HR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) for mortality and psychiatric morbidity were obtained with Cox regression models, which were adjusted for immigrant status and psychiatric morbidity prior to sex reassignment (adjusted HR [aHR]).

Results
The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

jerrye92002 said...

Glad to see you confirming what I told you. But I was wrong, I admit. Suicides in the study you cite are only 19 times as frequent (-13/+42) rather than 20 times. So does that minor difference still mean, to you, that child mutilation is a good idea? Or something that maybe /should/ be restricted by law?

John said...

As you ignore the study's conclusion...

The "confirmation bias" is strong in you... :-)

jerrye92002 said...

How can you read the study's conclusion in any way other than that sex reassignment is very dangerous and not helpful? And that overlooks the fact that child gender dysphorics are 20 times more likely to be "cured" of it as to undergo transition in the first place?
regret

John said...

Very easily... I read their words as they wrote them...

"Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Why do you have such a challenge reading them?

jerrye92002 said...

Depends on what part of the conclusion you read. I read the part that says reassignment surgery causes a severe uptick (19:1) in suicides, 2.8 times as many deaths and 2.8 times the number of psychiatric problems. That sounds like a cure worse than the disease, especially when the vast majority of those with gender dysphoria simply outgrow the "disease."

And here is another problem. Gays and Lesbians have been arguing for years they were "born that way" and cannot change. (Wrong, but...) and now we have this group claiming that not only can they change their "orientation" but their entire physical being. Also wrong. Did you read my cite?

John said...

"causes"? I did not see anything saying that the surgery caused suicides?


Source please... "vast majority of those with gender dysphoria simply outgrow the "disease.""

I read your war story, though Jazz seems fine with her decision.

Jazz to attend Harvard

John said...

Actually trans folks don't want to change their sexuality or their orientation... They just want to change their bodies to match their hearts and minds.

Kind of like Gay and Lesbian folks want to date and marry people that they are attracted to.

Only folks like yourself insist that they deny who they are and what they want...

John said...

Jerry,
A "mental aberation"? ("a departure from what is normal, usual, or expected, typically one that is unwelcome.")

You truly are an intolerant human who wants government to enforce your religious right will upon the citizens. And in doing so limiting the free will that God gave all of his children.

Growing Out of It?

John said...

How young is too young?

Anonymous said...

So, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence, biological fact, common sense and great public opposition, you still insist that child mutilation is OK, because it is a "poke in the eye" of your "religious right" strawperson? Who is intolerant and who is simply a radical gender extremist? Notice MN's new law stating that a child of parents in another state can be denied the freedom to NOT transition a child, and to have that child brought here to be mutilated. Whose freedom is being "tolerated" here?

So, like LtG Flanagagan says, when your 3-year-old tells you she's a cat, rush her off to a surgeon to add a tail and whiskers? What are the chances she will outgrow it?

John said...

Great Public Opposition? :-O :-) The only significant opposition is in the backwoods intolerant communities and states. The same yokels who disapprove of gay, lesbian and other citizens.

As I have shown, the medical community resoundingly supports parent and children's rights in this case.

And this bill simply protects parent(s) from those folks reaching out past their represented area. MN will soon be a sanctuary for parents and children.

jerrye92002 said...

Recent survey says public opinion is 2:1 against the MN "kidnapping" bill. If the medical community supports cutting away healthy tissues, then "do no harm" has no meaning anymore. Your own cite says that gender dysphoria is almost always transitory, and that chemicals and surgery do not solve the underlying psychiatric problem. MN will be the most extreme state in the nation on this transgender madness. If you think parents' rights should be uppermost, read again what Jazz's mother did to him, and his current misery from which she profits. Indeed, it specifies that parents' rights in a state that prohibits child mutilation will be ignored, so the horrible practice can be conducted here without their consent.

And let me quote one of many studies from the "medical community." "However, because subjects received psychotherapy, the authors note that the study does not provide direct evidence that pubertal suppression improves mental health in transgender youth." IOW, psychotherapy seems to be the key to treating "transgender youth," NOT mutilation or even dangerous puberty blockers. If you want to suggest the availability of such psychotherapy as a parental choice, I'm all for it. And while we are at it, how about we allow parents the freedom to seek psychotherapy for "unwanted same-sex attraction" as well, currently illegal in MN. Consistency, please?

John said...

"Kidnapping bill"? You mean Parents taking their children to a more free state?

You really have gone crazy with the "state control" over the citizens opinion.

Did you read the more recent articles where Jazz is starting a new life at Harvard and looking forward to it? No where does she say she wishes she had not had the surgery. Unless I missed it?

Do you mean the "psychotherapy" that our medical experts deem pointless and harmful to the child?

John said...

Could any amount of conversion therapy have convinced you to be comfortable making love to a man?

I am not sure why I am attracted to women, but I am pretty sure no one could talk me out of it.

I am not sure why you think people are wrong for being who they believe they are?


I am curious how far down the fascism path you would take us to enforce your view of a "perfect society"?

John said...

Horseshoe Theory

Anonymous said...

The cognitive dissonance is strong in you. Nothing, it seems, can be allowed to impinge on your tightly-held religious beliefs. Like most liberals, you have the amazing ability to hold two totally contradictory ideas to be simultaneously true.

In this case, you choose to ignore the biological reality of binary sex, "assigned at birth" and unalterable. It is therefore axiomatic that any other opinion or use of the reproductive equipment is a mental aberration of some sort. You also choose to ignore the fact that 95% – sorry, 94% – of those with gender dysphoria naturally outgrow it, and the fact that the remaining few are helped by psychotherapy alone, while the even tinier few who have the surgery STILL need psychotherapy. It is a mental problem, not a physical one.

You seem to be willing to write a law to contradict reality-- another typical liberal trait. Now if parents want to seek psychotherapy for their child with gender dysphoria, I would be all for that "parental right." But you seem to want to equate that right with some "right" to physically mutilate A child, as if sexual Mutilation were somehow more noble than cigarette burns or scalding water. And at the same time you insist That parents NOT be allowed, by law, the freedom to seek psychotherapy for a child with "unwanted same-sex attraction." Can you really have it both ways, or do you somehow imagine that there is a single, simple and clear principle in all of this?

John said...

I will stick with the medical experts on this one.


Please feel free to stay in Jerry world where the government makes people live by Jerry's sense of proper behavior.

jerrye92002 said...

You know what? I'm not even going to read it. I am certain that you can find some money-grubbing "medical expert" who will agree with you that butchery of a healthy, innocent child is perfectly fine and "does no harm." They're evil and so are you, so please stay out of "Jerry world" where all the normal people live, and support laws that try to prevent such radical child mutilation. Now if on the oft chance you are looking at "expert" psychiatrists, who undoubtedly SHOULD be involved in those 6% of cases that don't cure themselves, fine. I didn't read it; I don't know. Read what you want; it doesn't alter reality.

John said...

Jerry,
It simply shows statements from pretty much every main stream medical and pyschological organization in the USA. But keep your head in the sand.

jerrye92002 said...

So what does it say? That child genital mutilation is now "health care" and the preferred treatment for gender dysphoria? When experts spout nonsense, they should not be entertained as experts. And only a fool listens. I sure hope you never start telling your daughters they are boys, and then getting them surgical "health care" accordingly. Personally, I don't think you should have that "parental right."

John said...

That is the wonderful thing about America.

You have the right to disregard the trans individuals, the medical establishment, the parents of trans kids and the psychiatric experts and demand that you know better.

God Bless America !!!

jerrye92002 said...

Gee whiz! You mean my obviously benighted opinion that healthy children should not be mutilated to achieve the biologically impossible does not comport with your intellectually and morally superior opinion? /sarc off/

Still waiting for the justification for physically mutilating your own daughters.

John said...

Apparently you consider cosmetic surgery mutilation?

I see it as people altering their appearance to make themselves happier.

And if a person truly believes they are a woman, they probably are making a pretty logical decision to have the penis and testicles removed.

You see it as a "mutilation" because you do not value their beliefs.

jerrye92002 said...

There is absolutely no discernment in your world, is there? Cosmetic surgery as usually defined involves slight changes in appearance, NOT radical changes to sexually-related physical characteristics. We're not talking about a nose job or tattoo here.

And you fail to distinguish between an adult who desires physical mutilation (which it is, and which only about 1/6 ever do) with allowing parents (or anybody else) to push such mutilation on children. Should there be laws against child abuse?

I see it as mutilation because that is what it is-- destroying otherwise-healthy tissues. And I do not value the beliefs of paranoid homicidal maniacs, regardless of their "gender identity," as we just saw in Tennessee today. Your lack of discernment here is absolutely appalling. And dangerous.

John said...

Hopefully the majority of citizens will continue to support personal freedoms, empathy and tolerance.

And hopefully the old facist, judgmental and intolerant folks will continue to pass away. :-)

"How old are baby boomers?
In 2023, baby boomers are celebrating birthdays between the ages of 59 and 77.

They are just below the silent generation, born between 1928 and 1945, who are between 95 and 78 years old in 2023. "

jerrye92002 said...

So, you wish death on those who disagree with you, even on matters of basic science and common sense? And the vast majority of all those alive today oppose child mutilation. Not that such has ever stopped you from defending ridiculous and unpopular positions. You simply [falsely] conflate that with something more noble-sounding, and then go ad hominem based on that false characterization of the opposing viewpoint. Really, you need a new schtick.

John said...

If you want to treat LGBTQ folks as defective, pariahs and sinners, that is your choice.

Unfortunately you want to use the government to limit their freedoms and choices.

Which to me is anti-American, so yes I will be happy when facist supporters like you are no longer voting. Be they on the right or left.

Pew Research

jerrye92002 said...

NO. DISCERNMENT. WHATSOEVER.

How is denying /anybody/ the "freedom" to physically mutilate a child "anti-American" or "fascist"?

John said...


I will stick with the positions of the Doctors, not the Bible Bangers.

KH Youth Access to Gender Affirming Care

"What do major medical societies say about gender affirming services?
Most major U.S. medical associations, including those in the fields of pediatrics, endocrinology, psychiatry, and psychology, have issued statements recognizing the medical necessity and appropriateness of gender affirming care for youth, typically noting harmful effects of denying access to these services. These include statements from the American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, among others, which in some cases were specifically issued in response to the Arkansas legislation and Texas directive. Further, 23 medical associations or societies, including those named above, together filed an amicus brief in the case filed against Texas Gov. Abbott opposing the state directive. The brief states that denying gender affirming treatment to adolescents who need them would irreparably harm their health and that enforcing the directive would irreparably harm providers who are forced to choose between potentially facing civil and criminal penalties or endangering their patients. A similar amicus brief was filed in the Arkansas case.

Additionally, the Endocrine Society supports gender affirming care for young people in their clinical practice guidelines, as does the World Professional Association for Transgender Health’s standards of care. Together these guidelines form the standard of care for treatment of gender dysphoria."