Apparently Agriculture and Veteran's affairs are more important than the Education of our children and future citizens? https://www.npr.org/.../a-look-at-the-potential-impact-of...
Sunday, November 17, 2024
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42 comments:
Some Interesting Info
States need the funding for Spec Ed, Title one, and grants for low income college students. I don't think Congress will eliminate the dept of Ed.
I think they should leave it to the states to offer vouchers if they want, although I do not support them.
Laurie
I think the argument was that the Treasury Dept can take care of the money transfer tasks.
An interesting but long piece
Best look after your own house first. Robbinsdale schools made a $20million error? On top of an existing $27 million financial mess? So hard to get good help these days, and are the kids learning anything?
Good to see you are still alive.
My district seems to have a LOT of problems. Thankfully I do not have any kids in it anymore. And we are encouraging the kids to send the grand kid to Wayzata or Osseo. I have had enough of a diverse poor student body and all the struggles that come with it. :-)
So, why can't the parents like you (or your kids) send their kids to ANY school, using a voucher? Even if every parent were offered vouchers, those in good schools would take them to their current public school, and even those poor kids in poor schools would not have enough space, at least for several years, in alternative, non-public schools that would serve them better. That's why my proposal to allow these new schools to operate in the same buildings, teaching the kids from those buildings, and maybe even in just selected classes. Solves a lot of problems with the transition and lets the public school infrastructure continue to be used, while the public schools themselves figure out how to improve with that "diverse" student body.
Same old problem... The amount of the voucher needs to vary by the needs of the child. How to estimate that number?
Don't estimate, calculate. Average local per-pupil expenses (varies by age and obviously by district), and then tack on a special-ed adder according to their IEP. Don't throw away what is good for 83.1% for the sake of the 16.9%. And I believe we categorize FAR too many kids as special ed, when a bit of proper teaching would be fine for many of them, or even just a few "remedial" classes. The costs short-change the other students.
At least you have not changed your story... Which has always been incorrect...
Actual cost varies by much more than just age, district and special need.
Are you ready to tell me about your "miracle" school that does great for little money?
Sure. Any school any Mississippi. They spend half what MN does and their kids outperform ours in reading.
And if costs vary beyond age (even the State formula grants twice the amount to high school students as it does to k-6), district and SE, what is it? Are you going to finally explain why some school districts in MN deliver twice the results for half the money, yet claim that district isn't a substantial factor? Especially when the state formula compensates for all that other "stuff"?
It does look like Mississippi may be getting its act together finally. Though it still has a long way to go. Miracle?
Apparently the formula is not specific enough... We know that districts are not funded adequately for special needs services and that they need to steal from the other revenue streams.
The same occurs when children are just below the "special needs" threshold in capabilities and support. That is why I can estimate cost and success with 4 factors: mobility, poverty, language, special needs levels.
Data Source
I say the formula is too specific, and factors in the wrong things. Nonetheless, if you say you can estimate the amount of a voucher from those 4 factors, let us do that and start passing them out. One suspects that "poor"/"disadvantaged" students will get larger amounts and I'm OK with that so long as EVERY parent gets one and allows that voucher to go to ANY school. I am convinced that is the only way to introduce competition into the "business" of education to produce better results at lower cost, like in any other business. Either that or, by government fiat, give every public school the state average funding and make them justify additional funding above that, TIED to some required improvement in academic performance, like NCLB was supposed to do.
I am convinced that Bush was right, that achievement gaps like MN's second-in-the-nation are caused by "the soft bigotry of low expectations," and that is why Mississippi has been successful, above MN.
Thanks for the data link. It confirms that in 2022, MS's 4th grade reading score was higher than MN's, on average. The number I was looking at was from 2023, and showed that, for minority students especially, MS's was MUCH higher. It simply tells me that it makes every difference in WHAT is taught and HOW it is taught. I think I've told you of my experience with the Mississippi schools, and how they take kids from where they are, academically, and get them to where they need to be. Up here, y'all tend to put a teacher in front of a class and lecture to the "average" student. Some could be replaced with a videotape. There should be an expectation that every kid will (more or less) "get it" and that if they don't, they need additional help. Like I do when I tutor at the Elementary.
Maybe someday it will happen... But I am not holding my breath.
I am not a fan of public money going to religious schools...
You still suffer from "confirmation bias" if you are looking for that one cherry amongst the data...
I am not a fan of public money being spent to damage children and the country as a whole. If education is a public good, and it is, then any money spent should be spent efficiently and to maximize that good. Far from the case with the current public school (essentially a) monopoly.
I'm looking at the same NAEP data you are, just a different side of it. Yes, it confirms what I already thought. Stating a logical conclusion clearly based on the official and available data is NOT bias. Even if you don't like it.
Minnesota's public schools ARE failing an entire generation. Something like 50% of all students cannot read at grade level. What other business is allowed to continue, so greatly subsidized, with results like that?
As for public money going to "religious schools" you are displaying a clear bias, totally irrelevant to the problem. Courts have already ruled that, so long as the educational purposes are met--i.e. the kids are taught essential subjects-- the incidental classes in religion do not matter. And what do you call the now-required classes in "CRT" or "LGBTQWTF" being taught in some parts of the public schools? I ask again: if you do not want to create true competition in education through the use of "the money follows the child," how do you propose to overcome the totally unacceptable status quo?
Same way as I usually recommend
Acknowledging that LGBTQ children in a classroom are normal is the same as acknowledging that White, Black and other children are normal. Not sure why you would be against that?
CRT Information
Are you one of those folks who want to down play slavery, the Jim Crow days, the KKK, race riots, etc and pretend that us White folks did not keep our kness on the necks of minorities for the first 190 years of our country's existence?
That's silly and beneath both you and this conversation. There are a lot of factors in success, but institutional racism isn't one of them. Except maybe in the inner city public schools they are forced to attend.
To which I always reply that you ate pushing on a very long wet noodle. Why not simply offer the financial incentives for better education to parents, and let the resulting competition solve the problems, whatever they may be? A good education is the route out of poverty, so start with this one thing within government control and let the structural/cultural stuff sort itself out naturally from there.
Because it does nothing for the millions of kids who have incompetent, addicted, etc parents. And those are the kids who need the most help from our society. Unfortunately you keep choosing to ignore those most unlucky of kids, while making easier for the more fortunate children to flee from them.
And you brought up CRT... Which of course is silly and a waste of words...
And don't even get me started on "LGBTQ kids" because there is no such thing, no more so than there are black kids and white kids. They are kids. Teach them how to read and do math, write a proper English paragraph and eventually how to become Successful and productive citizens of the United States. To even acknowledge otherwise Is a distraction and excuse for not doing the job properly. "Black kids can't learn"; Is that what you mean to say?
Is it silly that some form of "ethnic studies" (I have not checked into the full details) are now mandated in all public schools in Minnesota?
So how do you account for the fact that your so-called "unlucky kids," when given a Chance, suddenly turn into excellent students? I've seen it in my own tutoring experience, where a poor kid whose parents had limited English came to me and didn't know one number from another. By Christmas time he was Near the top of his class in math. And what are you going to do, simply classify a kid as "unlucky" and never try to teach them anything because they can't learn? Are you really willing to deny the 70, 80, Or 90 Percent of students Something better, Only so that you can continue to fail all 100% of them?
Those are lucky kids if their parents cared enough about academics to seek out a tutor. The millions of unlucky kids do not have that advantage.
Let's hold parents accountable, they are supposed to be responsible for raising their child into good citizens...
Kids are not interchangeable ball bearings. Their emotional and developmental needs need to be met as well as their academic. Denying who they are and the challenges they face is not an option. Especially when that little boy feels like a little girl...
"Approximately one in four children experience child abuse or neglect in their lifetime. Of maltreated children, 18% are abused physically, 78% are neglected, and 9% are abused sexually. The fatality rate for child maltreatment is 2.2/1000 children annually, making it the second leading cause of death in children younger than age one. Exposure to violence during childhood can have lifelong health consequences, including poor physical, emotional, and mental health. Prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of physical child abuse is key to preventing these adverse health outcomes; however, child physical abuse is under-detected and under-reported by medical providers."
Abuse / Neglect
I think you have missed the point. The tutors are provided by the school, with volunteers from the community. Costs are essentially nil, and the benefits tremendous for the individual students. It simply proves what I have been saying, that the public schools are not trying to reach the kids where they are and move them to where they need to be, but rather ignoring that some are different, or even worse condemning them to failure because their demographic "can't learn." It's sinful. Free the children!
As for this nonsense about childhood delusions, including Santa Claus and imaginary friends, kids who do not outgrow it as well over 95% do, should be given psychiatric help, not butchery. If genitals does not define gender, then how does cutting them off "affirm" gender? Let's confine the discussion to education, shall we?
I think you are missing the point. Good responsible parent(s) can find plenty of extra support within the current system or from volunteer organizations... That is if they work access it.
Taking money away from the schools that deal with the unluckiest kids is just plain wrong. Unless you want the "other schools" to be forced to take the kids with severe special needs and dead beat parent(s).
You are correct that genitals apparently do not decide one's sex. Are you not a man if you have your testicles removed due to cancer?
One's sexuality is determined by each individual, and they should be free to live as they wish and be supported by their community. Including their school teachers.
Or do you truly believe that LGBTQ is equivalent to Santa Claus after all these years? LGBT Stats Maybe you should move back to MS... :-)
You are still missing the point. These tutors are provided by the SCHOOL, using volunteers from the community. The children are identified by their teacher as those needing extra help, and they get that help, exactly as needed, rather than simply allowing them to fail, as a Typical public school would normally do. Good responsible parents have nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the school to see that every child is educated to their full potential, and offering a little extra help here and there should be the minimum expectation. And why would you deny good responsible parents the right to choose another school that might offer them a better education? Why would you condemn the children of good responsible parents to a life of penury and squalor?
We have covered this specious "taking money away from the schools" argument by saying that the amount of the voucher Should match the Estimated cost of educating that particular child (which you claim can be done from four factors). And I still believe you are looking at this backwards, as if the public school is entitled to the money that the parents should have to spend (from public funds for the public good) on their child's education. Especially since parents with kids in good schools can take the voucher to their current public school. Think of it as a simple matter of "taking your business elsewhere" when necessary. And again, it will be years after this competition is introduced (unfortunately) before the failing public school would be forced out of business. I would also include in the enabling legislation a LOT of additional educational freedom for the public schools to improve by managing their resources more effectively.
One other thing, and the same argument applies. Even if your statistic of 25% "abused" kids is true, which I'm certain is highly inflated, it does not relieve the school of responsibility for teaching those kids as much as they possibly can. We already have a mechanism whereby teachers can report obvious cases of abuse and have the child removed from the home. That is rare and should be. Of the many kids I have tutored, I had only one whose home life was interfering with his education, and it wasn't really abuse as normally defined. The point remains, do we really want to penalize the 75% of kids who are not abused at home but ARE abused by the failing education system and prevent them from getting something better, just so that we can ALSO educationally abuse the 25% who were already being abused at home?
Yes. You are prepared to sacrifice the truly unlucky kids so private school kids can have us tax payers pay their bills. No thanks.
Or who do think will take care of the truly unlucky and troubled kids? Lord knows you are not willing make private schools take, keep and succeed with all children who show up at their door.
True competition means that the parties need to play by the same rules... Privates do not get to pick the cherries while the pits go elsewhere.
And you are prepared to sacrifice the 90 plus percent of kids who might benefit from escaping their failing public school. Especially since The public schools, freed from the requirements dictated from on high and given the same compensatory funding, could do just as well, but don't. You can presume whatever you want, but the fact is that wherever vouchers are offered that might enable parents to choose a better school, applicants can number as high as 100 to one. If school choice does not result in improvements at the local public school, by date of competition, then they simply deserve to go out of business. What they are doing to the next generation is criminal. Kids are not unlucky by nature of their environment. They are unlucky because of the school they are forced to attend.
Of course they are...
And your math is kind of funny... ~82% of kids graduate in MN. (at or above basic performance) 62 are proficient or advanced. And 10% are challenged by special needs.
That means ~20% are truly struggling to succeed academically... Unfortunately most of our truly impoverished / incompetent adults and their very unlucky kids live in the same areas. :-(
Since most of us wealthy folks have run from their communities.
We've got a lot of "funny math" surrounding this issue, not including the crazy way math is being taught these days.
First off, I'm not sure you can prove that the 82% graduation implies anything about proficiency at or above, since the DFL eliminated the graduation requirements. "ST. PAUL (WCCO) -- A recent study shows that as many as 40 percent of public high school students who enter a public college or university has to take at least one remedial course in reading, writing or math."
Second, even if true (and it probably is) 82% "success" statewide doesn't really impress, when things like HCZ have 100% in the "unluckiest" areas. Meanwhile, Minnesota's unlucky neighborhoods do much worse, where even 4th graders are only about 30% proficient. If vouchers were only given to those demographics, or better yet to just those in "failing schools" (and we know which ones they are), as most voucher programs propose, we could have the greatest impact where it is most needed. [BTW, most surveys say the universal school choice more popular than the targeted approach.]
And the other statistic that should be considered: IF the voucher were simply made universal and based on the actual cost of each child, 90% of parents overall would choose their current school, while 60+% of parents in failing schools would choose alternatives. Why would you deprive them of that right for their child?
Please remember that I like HCZ in general... However you seem to be forgetting that their system involves heavy family system involvement before the baby is even born. All those parent education and pre-k activities that you do not support.
Same reason I always note, I am not going to send the most unlucky children to the wolves as you wish to. Or have you thought of a way to care for and educate special needs and kids with dead beat / incompetent parents?
I am still waiting after all these years to show me the miracle school that works with all comers... Irregardless to the parent, special needs, behavior issues, etc...
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