FB has been strange lately. On on side I am defending people who say Black Lives Matter and on the other I am people who are arguing that Police Lives Matter. Like these concepts are in someway mutually exclusive... His the first...
G2A The Poor Kids are Screwed :-(
G2A How to Fix the Gaps?
G2A Time of Fear and Contempt
The BLM folks want to be listened to and supported. The puzzle to me is why are so many GOPers so emotionally vested in denying them this simple request. Imagine those who go out of the way to tear down other people's signs.
It reminds me of the Right's "Unborn Lives Matter" slogan. Would they be happy if the response was "All Lives Matter"? And if "All Lives Matter", why are the GOPers so reluctant to ensure that all children/women get excellent pre-natal healthcare, children get excellent healthcare and early childhood education, etc.
My usual answers is that many "Pro-Lifers" only care about babies /lives until they pass the cervix. Then they are someone else's problem. 🙁
I am sure that all of us agree that All Lives Matter... That does not mean that Black Lives Matter is incorrect. If I say that your children's lives matter. Is that incorrect? Is it in any way harmful?And here is the second regarding the Jacob Blake shooting.
It is a fascinating issue / case...
The question I have is what are police supposed to do when a person of interest refuses to cooperate? I mean folks don't want the police tackling them... One Liberal said they should have taken down his license plate and let him drive away which makes no sense to me. Thoughts?
- Police called to a dispute and start asking questions.
- Jacob refuses to stay and answer questions. Which makes sense since he has a warrant out for his arrest.
- He walks to his car apparently carrying a knife.
- While the police are telling him to stop with their guns drawn. Apparently they even tasered him?
- He rapidly reaches into his car. (maybe hiding the knife?)
- Police shoot as he begins to turn around.
I don't have any idea if the right choice was made by the officer or not... But hopefully the investigation will be thorough and fact based. Not driven by a political / social witch hunt...
I just looked at the map... The city is right between Milwaukee / Racine Wisc and Chicago IL... I am assuming the riots will only intensify unless the National Guard and State Police can quite literally crush them. 🙁 Hopefully it happens tonight.This definitely a complicated time and here are my thoughts in no particular order.
- Jacob did have an arrest warrant out for him and a criminal history. Likely why he wanted to flee the scene with his knife. I am not justifying his shooting, just noting that he was no angelic Father.
- Another recent piece of news is that it turns out that George Floyd may have over dosed on fentanyl. Which does not let the officer off the hook, since he should have treated him like a patient much sooner than he did. However don't the Liberals get tired of destroying property in the name of drug addicts, sexual abusers, etc?
- When are people going to let the cameras and system work?
- When are the DEMs going to get serious about stopping the arson, rioting and looting aggressively? I told a Liberal friend that it would be ironic if Trump is re-elected because he was trying to protect criminals... I doubt if he found it amusing.
G2A The Poor Kids are Screwed :-(
G2A How to Fix the Gaps?
G2A Time of Fear and Contempt
31 comments:
If we choose to see PLM and BLM are in conflict, we are basically saying it's okay to kill black people in order to make police safer.Is that what we want to say? And if we don't want to say, is that something, in our hearts, that we believe?
--Hiram
What happens is the linking of unlinked issues. For example, I don't think there is a linkage between police saftey and black lives matter. But it is a common rhetorical for to do what I unfairly did. One way to think of it is as "What about ism". If I am talking about apples, one respons is always to say, "what about organges?' For single issue voters, the answer to any political statement is always "What about [insert single issue here]?"
My response to this is to say, all of us have our priorities, and just as I don't get to pick your priorities, you don't get to pick mine. I refer the David Mamet dialogue in the movie "The Untouchables". "Don't you have more important things go do?" "I do, but I am not doing them now."
--Hiram
Actually for police to be safe, they will sometimes fail on the side of being too cautious.
Meaning that sometimes innocent people of all races will be injured or die.
Every time a potential criminal reaches into the car for something there is a chance that it may be a gun.
If the officer hesitates he may die, if he does not hesitate the citizen may die. It is a terrible and terrifying job. I am happy some people are willing to do it.
The problem here as usual is the Public Employee Union system... Tenure and employee protection are BAD things.
The fact that a person may not be an angel doesn't mean the police get to summarily execute them.
No it does not...
When potential criminals ignore repeated warnings, resist arrest or make sudden unexpected motions. Then police are allowed to make the choice.
If you were the police officer, would you expect any less?
Or would you be willing to hesitate and maybe be shot, stabbed, killed?
Actually for police to be safe, they will sometimes fail on the side of being too cautious.
Which seems to mean every once in a while, out of caution, a black guy gets strangled.
Personally, I don't want to say that PLM and BLM are in conflict. I don't want to say that in order for police lives to matter more black lives must matter less. I don't want to make this a zero sum game. But I guess there are those who do. But if you want to know what racism looks like in the 21st century, that's one example.
--Hiram
You apparently have forgotten all of my challenging informative research...
"Now I know that many of you want to obsess about Blacks, Racism, etc, but that is NOT a measurable issue. And we have tons of Native Americans, Hispanics, and even White families that suffer in very similar ways.
And after looking into the numbers, the unfortunate reality is that it is likely that most of the additional police encounters with Black and Hispanic individuals is due to the higher likelihood of them being in gangs and involved in crime. And yes there is a war going on between the gangs, other gangs and the police, and yes sometimes innocent civilians pay the price. So cut the police a break, while making sure the bad officers are punished."
Apparently ~100 officers die per year in the line of duty. And ~1,100 citizens die at the hands of police each year.
We need better data
Hiram,
How about you do some actual research for a change?
Determine the ratios of violent crime and officers being killed by the races of the perpetrators.
Then compare those numbers to the ratios of the citizens that are killed by officers.
Maybe you can prove your opinion.
I read an interview with Betsy Hodges about why she felt Democrats had not solved any of the problems despite being in charge of all the major metropolitan areas for decades. Her answer made a great deal of sense to me. She said it was due to white liberals being more concerned about their property values than actual change. Yea, more affordable housing is needed and would help, but you can't possibly expect it to be built in their neighborhood. I get that and she's right that we need to change people's mindsets.
Here's the interview: https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/07/10/the-dirty-work-of-white-liberal-leaders-is-done-by-police-fmr-minneapolis-mayor-betsy-hodges-writes-in-op-ed/
"Then police are allowed to make the choice."
They gave Tamir Rice a whole two seconds. John Crawford got slightly longer. Jamar Clark was dead in less than a minute. Philando Castile was trying to comply with contradictory instructions from the officer.
Betsy Hodges Interview
Sean,
Are you familiar with the concept of 6 Sigma failures per million opportunities?
Sean,
The unfortunate reality is that bad things happen sometimes.
The less controlled the opportunity the more likely bad things will happen.
The more opportunities that occur, the more bad things will happen.
PERFECTION is impossible.
So as long as kids wave toy guns around without supervision, as long as people carry guns when high, as long as people fight physically fight with officers, as long as people walk around carrying an unpackaged gun in his hands, etc... Bad things may happen...
How many unjustified officers occur annually in the USA?
How many opportunities occur annually in the USA?
An opportunity would be each time one of the ~685,000 officers having an interaction with a citizen.
Determine the ratios of violent crime and officers being killed by the races of the perpetrators.
Because to pay a lot of attention to that would be racist.
One of the things I talk about a lot is gap thinking. We tend to thing of gaps as one issue as opposed to two or more issues. Ratios are a way of looking at gaps. They compare two things. The problem is that the two things might be entirely different. Police safety isn't the same thing as racism.
As it is, with Minneapolis police there are two distinct issues. One issue is racism within the department. That may or may not exist. It's a complicated issue. The second issue is whether Minneapolis police are perceived as racist and about that, there is no doubt. The Minneapolis police have had that perception problem for as long as I can remember. It's a perception they invited when they visibly associated themselves with Donald Trump. Why MPLS cops invite that perception is something of a mystery to me. St. Paul cops don't do that. But that Minneapolis cops chose the image they present to the world is extremely hard to dispute. It's a basic reason I think they should be dissolved and the jurisdiction of St. Paul police should be extended to Minneapolis.
--Hiram
"The unfortunate reality is that bad things happen sometimes."
Sure, but where's the accountability when bad things happen?
Hiram.
Analysis is not racist. It is just using data to better understand reality.
Perceived racism is just another form of unsubstantiated prejudice without analysis.
Sean,
Why do believe there was not "accountability" in all of the instances you named?
As far as I remember... Investigations were held, employers / cities payed settlements, cops lost their jobs when appropriate, charges were filed when appropriate, juries decided when necessary, etc...
"Why do believe there was not "accountability" in all of the instances you named?"
Because there has been a consistent lack of accountability in killings of black folks. Even in the few cases where there has been accountability, it has often come through external forces, not the normal process.
If it weren't for the cell phone video, Derek Chauvin would be on the beat today. Same with the guy who choked out Eric Garner. Or the guy who shot Walter Scott in the back.
Yes. Having a witness and evidence is often important in proving that a crime was committed.
Without these many criminals get away with their crime.
There were three other cops there for the George Floyd killing. None of them lifted a finger to stop what was going on. Even if you accept that kneeling on Floyd was necessary to subdue him, Chauvin keeps his knee of Floyd's neck for three minutes after they can't find a pulse and it takes several more minutes for paramedics to do anything to save the guy's life. The MPD even put out a misleading press release about the incident.
There were five NYPD officers there for Eric Garner's arrest, none of them provide any assistance. A second officer in the Walter Scott shooting watches the officer who fired the shots move a Taser closer to Scott's body and fails to offer any medical assistance.
And we wonder why folks don't trust the police or think there isn't accountability?
Analysis is not racist. It is just using data to better understand reality.
Analysis can be racist just like anything else. Garbage in, garbage out.
--Hiram
Perceived racism is just another form of unsubstantiated prejudice without analysis.
That may be the case, but people are dying because of it. I don't see perception as prejudice. I perceive the color red, but that doesn't mean I am biased against it. Nor is my perception necessarily unsubstantiated. In saying Donald Trump is perceived as a racist by the people Minneapolis, I wasn't saying he actually was a racist. But the fact is, Donald doesn't get any votes there and that perception of him is a big reason why.
--Hiram
Not so long ago, politicians and other people thought it was important to avoid not just conflicts, but perceptions of conflicts. Jimmy Carter had to sell his peanut business because of government programs having to do with agriculture, that sort of thing. I know of one person who had to get out of her home yarn dying internet business because she was taking a government job, at a personal loss of tens of dollars. That doesn't seem to be a concern anymore. Trump runs hotels where government employees not only stay but are charged for staying, and no one really cares. The White House is used for a political rally, reminiscent of Peron's Argentina at least as presented on the Brodway stage. But this comes at a price, and we are seeing the result now.
==Hiram
Sean,
Yes people tend to protect their own. Be they police officers, teachers, air traffic controllers, etc.
Usually out of fear that they may be the next one under threat...
Maybe it it is that collective bargaining philosophy? They have been brain washed to believe what happens to one will happen to all.
As I keep saying... Let's weaken public employee unions and eliminate tenure type job protections.
What do you think these groups of people will do if they feel even more threatened?
Hiram
prejudice: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."
It is all about perspective and perception.
If one has a perspective that police will harm them, it clouds their perception of reality.
If one thinks the young scruffy Black man will harm them, it clouds their perception of reality.
Hiram,
I agree that the current potential conflicts of interest are unacceptable. Apparently the courts are not convinced.
What do you mean by this?
"But this comes at a price, and we are seeing the result now."
Is perception "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."?
Are opinions about Trump not based on reason or actual experience?
Politics is about perception. That's basic Sorkin. So is policing, which is why it is so important for cops to work to avoid perceptions of racism.
--Hiram
Like everything we perceive. Both.
Confirmation bias occurs from the direct influence of desire on beliefs.
When I am at a traffic stop, is the reason I see a green light, because I want to see a green light? Instead of perception, is it a matter of confirmation bias?
It's okay, I suppose to substitute the term "confirmation basis" for perception although doing that is a bit solipsitic for my taste. But if we do that, does it really change things. Whether it's a matter of perception or CB, the fact is, the endorsement of Minneapolist cops of Trump will be perceived as racist. It's for reasons like that that many entities avoid political endorsements, particularly of Trump. It's why most respected Republican politicians avoided the Republican Convention last week.
--Hiram
Something to keep in mind is that just the fact that something is the reult of confirmation bias, doesn't make it untrue. Indeed, the existence or lack thereof of confirmation bias, is irrelevant to whether something is either true or false.
Wherher a conclusion is true or false has nothing to do with whether the argument used to reach it is or isn't fallacious.
--Hiram
Hiram,
You are rambling more than normal...
Confirmation Bias is just a filter in you brain that impacts what you notice and give credibility.
The stop sign will be there no matter what, and hopefully you will notice it you are driving. (ie important and credible)
And yes Liberal voters do perceive Mpls Police and their supporters to be racist, whether they are or are not. But to them their perception is their reality.
I am not sure why many people avoided the RNC, my guess is being perceived negatively for "race" issues is just one of many reasons. Though I assume Trump's self serving, lying, stupidity, etc is the bigger reason.
I think the people of Minneapolis generally perceive the Minneapolis police department. And certainly. And because perception is a kind of reality, it is very important to manage perceptions. That's why it was a mistake for Minneapolis police to so publicly identify themselves with Trump.
"I am not sure why many people avoided the RNC, my guess is being perceived negatively for "race" issues is just one of many reasons."
For roughly the same reason a lot of German oliticians during the third reich avoided having their picture taken with Hitler.
--Hiram
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