From MP Trump Mandate, someone finally answered my question about why are Liberals so scared? And what of?
"What do I expect. Full disclosure: I consider myself a progressive liberal. What I expect to see is a Republican Congress attempting to disable the ACA so that the 20 million newly insured people will find themselves unable to continue their insurance because of costs or lack of choices. Then there's the rest of us who will likely see higher premiums and fewer choices due to the Republicans trying to incentivize insurance companies to make more money.
What I expect to see is our natural resources decimated by the renewed and increased push to drill for oil and coal rather than investing in greener and more renewable energy sources.
I expect to see our education system become more and more privatized (which typically means more expensive and exclusive), leaving behind millions of children whose parents are unable to get into the privatized schools either due to lack of money or the proper credentials: race, religion, location, etc.
I expect to see people become less civilized in their interactions with those who are different from them because of color, religion, wealth, occupation, education, gun ownership, or any other rationalized disdain. And I expect more people will live in fear of that increased vitriol even as many try to defuse the anger and bigotry.
I expect to see more and more people struggle harder and harder to make it each month because their wages haven't seen an effective raise in several years. All while executives and others already wealthy people see thier taxes decrease so that they keep more of their "earned" money.
I hope I'm wrong, but this is what I expect to see in the next 4 years. And, yes, I do expect it to be worse than if Hillary had won the election and/or the Democrats had gained the majority in Congress." Cindy
"Now that is better. It sounds like you expect them to behave like typical Republicans... Not Facists or crazy people. As for your concerns:
Please remember that most of those 20 million actual got insurance via the medicaid expansion. And please remember that we tax payers and insurance premium payers are funding that expansion, the pre-existing conditions coverage, coverage to age 26, etc by paying more. ACA had some good parts like the insurance mandate, otherwise it is for the most part a welfare expansion / wealth transfer program.
I am not sure how drilling "decimates natural resources"... Since the oil is under the ground. You should go visit ND. There are wells and pipelines, but mostly there are miles and miles and mile of wheat fields.
I see up and downsides to vouchers. However given the number of kids Left Behind in the Mpls, St Paul, and similar districts... Especially minority and poor children. I think we owe it to them to help them escape those schools and the monopoly that controls them.
After watching the post election protests, I agree with you that there are many on the Left who are very biased and angry. :-) Hopefully they will become more tolerant and peaceful.
Please note that the Democrats had full control for 2 years, and had the Presidency for 6 years. I agree that they did a poor job of growing our economy and helping the working class. Hopefully Trump and crew can do better.
I am a big believer in protecting the goose that lays the golden eggs. I think Hillary was ready to slaughter the goose in order to take all the eggs... I am not excited with Trump etal, but I think it could have been worse. Time will tell. Thanks for the clarification." G2A
42 comments:
I certainly am. We have turned our nation's future over to an unprincipled sociopath, and quite frankly a guy I wouldn't trust to door knock a neighborhood in Crystal. Our nation has been in decline, and the election of Donald Trump is visible evidence of that.
--Hiram
Poor Cindy. She is going to be SOOOO disappointed!
no comment as what I have to say is profanity and name calling.
I'm surprised at you. Could you at least let us know to whom your ire would be directed? I think I'm with Hillary on this one. At least give Trump a chance to screw up royally before saying with such certainty that he will.
Yeah... I mean aren't you Liberals supposed to be the kind, tolerant, non-prejudice, turn the other cheek, give them a chance, etc folks? :-)
Or is that only when the other person believes as you do, says what you want to hear, and does only what you instruct them to do? It seems that Liberals may be a lot like Dictators or maybe the Chinese communist leaders...
Tee-hee. Hiram says "our nation is in decline" and Trump hasn't even taken office yet! So any "decline" must be dropped at the feet of the people who have been running the country into the ground for the last eight years, right?
The profanity that I am not using is about Trump and the name calling (which would likely be a little profane) would be directed at John. I just don't have the same inclination to swear at you, Jerry. I do disagree with you about who is responsible for the ways that our country has declined and it is very much the GOP leaders and GOP congress. Obama has actually been quite successful, in spite of the GOP congress.
Laurie,
Please explain this precipitous decline from your perspective?
I like to think of the changes as slowing the rate of the water temperature increase. Now we will see if the GOP will actually turn the burn down... History has shown that as politicians they are incapable of doing this also.
The trick is how to get the outlays line below the revenues line for a while so we can pay the National Debt down to a reasonable level. Maybe 30 percent of the GDP.
And yes I am aware that the supposedly Conservative modern Republicans have been complete failures in terms of accomplishing this...
you sure make a lot of wrong projections in to the comments people make - I did not say "precipitous decline" I said Obama has actually been quite successful. I also mentioned "the ways that our country has declined" by which I meant the GOP run campaigns that appeal to racism and xenophobia, which has culminated in Trump winning the electoral college vote. Here is an example of how the country has declined:
Update: Incidents of Hateful Harassment Since Election Day Now Number 701
If you really cared about the deficit you should have voted for Hillary, who would have had a very small impact. Soon Trump and the GOP congress will be increasing the deficit tremendously. That is probably one of the first things they will do.
Sorry... Hillary wanted to raise taxes to pay for more freebies and welfare. Bad idea, Killing our golden goose in search of eggs...
"for the ways that our country has declined and it is very much the GOP leaders and GOP congress." Laurie
"Please explain this precipitous decline from your perspective?" G2A
Now how did I incorrectly interpret your comment?
Part of your answer is that silly nearly baseless "xenophobia / racism" accusation. I see the common themes as logical, not "xenophobic / racist":
- people are tired of illegal aliens keeping downward pressure on wages and taking their jobs, and they want them out of the country.
- people think it is foolish to take in refugees from groups/countries that are more likely to include people with anti-American sentiments.
- people are tired of being told that their religious beliefs are less important than someone's stated sexual preference.
I think it is pretty normal for people to want these things, and yet the Far Left folks like yourself prefer to name call and insult them...
You are so dense. It is the GOP congress who has the ability to raise taxes. There would be no tax hike nor tax cut if Clinton were president. Are you so obtuse on purpose?
For some reason Liberals seem to support these statements:
- let's take in / keep more illegal workers even though the legal workers suffer because of it.
- even though there are people waiting to immigrate here in many countries, let's take a bunch from the societies where anti-American sentiment exists.
- those religious beliefs are immaterial compared to a person's professed sexual preference. Screw that freedom of religion and association stuff.
Now to me those seem illogical.
I did not describe the decline as precipitous as I think the country has done quite well under Obama in many ways.
so do you find more than 700 reported incidents of hateful harassment in the past 2 weeks at all concerning?
Facts and Data from a Liberal source
Laurie,
Don't you find mass demonstration and destruction in the streets concerning?
And Trump has repeatedly disavowed the violent skin head whackos... Not sure what you want from him?
your idiotic comments have put me back in name calling / swearing mood again. I will try Jerry's method of making a point - ONLY CONGRESS HAS THE ABILITY TO RAISE TAXES.
Hillary's tax hike proposal would have never passed. It is irrelevant.
as for protesting in the street I am still hopeful there will be a demonstration in Mpls on Jan 20, as I'd really like to join it.
Don't you find mass demonstration and destruction in the streets concerning?
For myself I do find demonizing concerning. But I find demons to be of concern as well. On November 8th, America made a deal with the devil which we all have to live with. Now we got some things out of it. An air conditioning plant will remain open in Indiana. We will be mining more coal. Some nuns won't birth control in their health insurance. These are all things America wanted and will get. But as any reader of The Screwtape Letters, or fans of old Twilight Zone episodes knows, deals with the devil come with a price. The deal we made must be watched over vigilantly to make sure that the devil gets nothing more than his due.
--Hiram
Liberals supposed to be the kind, tolerant, non-prejudice, turn the other cheek, give them a chance, etc folks? :-)
Maybe we as liberals should pay a little more attention to what we are and what we need, and a little less attention to what people suppose us to be.
--Hiram
The most basic thing to understand about Donald Trump is that he is who he says he is, a deal maker, a negotiator, a man who isn't moved by principle or morality, but by power. Those who deal with such a man, in the short term, need to understand that the only way to move him his to accumulate and use power against him. In the Trumpian world we live in, calls for unity, proclamations of resiliency, will never be taken as anything more than signs of weakness to a predatory capitalist. I am reminded a lot these days of the realpolik of the Melian dialogue, as relevant today as it was 2500 years ago: "And we ask you on
your side not to imagine that you will influence us by saying that you, though a colony of Sparta,
have not joined Sparta in the war, or that you have never done us any harm. Instead we recommend
Thucydides’ Melian Dialogue
2
that you should try to get what it is possible for you to get, taking into consideration what we both
really do think; since you know as well as we do that, when these matters are discussed by practical
people, the standard of justice depends on the equality of power to compel and that in fact the
strong do what they have the power to do and the weak accept what they have to accept."
In Donald Trump's world, the strong do what they want, the weak accept what they must. The sooner we learn this, the better.
--Hiram
Laurie,
We voted for a President, and if the Trump voters had not shown up there was a chance back then that Congress could have gone Democrat. Thankfully it was the Democratic voters who did not show up and Congress stayed GOP.
As I have said over and over, I would have happily voted for Hillary if she had not run on a Democratic Socialist platform. But she did and a bunch of people like me said NO to rewarding the unsuccessful public employee unions on the backs of the hard working citizens.
When will Democrats start focusing on the whole country and not just the poor fringes?
It is interesting to me that so many people picked this year, the year of Trump, to focus on party platforms, which have otherwise gone unread for many generations. I wonder what motivated this choice.
As a Democrat myself, I have never read a recent platform (I once read the 1932 platform for research purposes) and never have felt in the least bound by it's provisions. Do republicans feel differently? Do they feel bound by it's provisions?
--Hiram
Please remember that I did not read the Democratic Platform... I was reading Hillary's Plan on her issues page.
What do you know... It is still there
Trumps are Still there also
John, If you have read both plans (I have only read Trump's, which is why I categorize him a pragmatist above all else), do you find your prejudgements affirmed on both? Do you stand by your ratings of one above the other?
Hiram, I agree that Platforms don't mean much, except that elected Democrats seem to try to achieve theirs, while elected Republicans tend to disavow any knowledge of their own.
Laurie, I would suggest to you that you hold off demonstrating in the street on Jan. 20th. It is liable to become violent and I don't want anybody hurt. Besides, I have never been able to pinpoint that point in time where "rioting in the streets" replaced "writing to your Congressman" as the most effective way to participate in self-governance.
More than that, I've always considered you more sensible than someone who would express a virulent prejudice against someone because of what they /might/ do at some future point. Shouldn't these folks wait until AFTER 1/20, when Trump actually DOES something worthy of their outrage? Or are they just rioting for the HL of it?
I have only skimmed them both, but Trump's positions seemed more logical and capitalistic. (ie Let people who make good choices enjoy the rewards, Let people who make bad choices learn from their mistakes.)
Whereas Clinton's seemed very idealistic and socialistic. (ie Take from people who make good choices, and use it to reward people who make bad choices.)
Now I am all for giving people a hand up. But they need to be wanting and working for it. Just tossing them scraps from the top of the cliff and keeping them dependent and hopeless is pure evil.
I think Laurie is planning to attend a Liberal Rally, not a riot. But you are correct that history is beginning to show that the Liberals do know how damage public and private property... :-)
Laurie,
Just curious, what would you have said about Trump protesters gathering, shutting down highways, breaking stuff, etc if Clinton had won?
What would you have called them?
What would you have felt about them?
I am always supportive of peaceful protests, though it seems very unlikely to me that Trump supporters would have engaged in this activity had he lost. It seems to be a tactic of the left. I have participated in at least 6 protests, which are quite fun when the crowd is large.
As for protest now or wait till Trump has done more, I favor both, as Trump has already done things worthy of protesting. First there is the racist, xenophobic tone of his whole campaign and second there are his appointments thus far - which include a guy who created a platform for the alt-right; an ex-general with delusions of persecution; a deputy who thinks Hillary Clinton sent black helicopters after her; an attorney general who's basically opposed to all laws protecting minorities; a governor with no background for her job; a CIA director who supports more torture and more black sites and a billionaire who wants to destroy public education;
(the descriptive list of Trump appointees comes from K. Drum)
Drum... That explains a lot...
Maybe you should explain why you see these picks as excellent choices to help Trump lead the country rather than just make a snide comment about Drum. Fyi Bannon is seen very widely on the left as a terrible pick for close advisor to Trump as are Flynn and Sessions. As for Devos here is a link I found interesting about how bad might she be:
What’s the worst that could happen with Betsy DeVos as education secretary? Two scenarios.
Laurie,
It seems to me that the Left is looking for evil where there may not be any. Everyone has a past and skeletons, time will tell what they learned from those past experiences and how they have changed.
As for vouchers, I am not a fan of them. That said, the Public Education Unions / System need a massive revolution in which they put the kids first. Since they fought NCLB rather than seeing it as a signal that change is not optional, maybe vouchers are the only way to help the unlucky kids. 50+ years of leaving the most vulnerable children behind is NOT acceptable.
while posting links for you is a complete waste of time, it takes only about 10 seconds so why not.
Potential Conflicts Around the Globe for Trump, the Businessman President
Even if I believe the paranoid delusional descriptions of Trump's appointees that Drum posits, I still am not seeing the logic of any protest until at least Jan. 21 (unless it's just "fun"-- and it certainly does not deserve to be taken seriously). Trump's appointees deserve the same "wait and see" restraint that Obama has called for. (Amazing how this Great Leader suddenly has no persuasive authority, is it not?)
Now I myself am under no delusions. Those like Drum, willing to describe some very good people as anti-social monsters, are never going to admit to error or even recognize that those people are actually doing good things. Part of that is just pure confirmation bias, but most of it will be because "good" cannot occur, in their world, unless accomplished by their preferred policies. Suppose, for example, we give out school vouchers to everybody and the "gap" that afflicts black, inner-city kids begins to disappear? It will be counted a failure because it does not take place in the public school system. Or suppose the Republican Congress passed a tax bill that gave a 10% tax cut to everybody? The caterwauling that the "rich" got more DOLLARS in their tax cut would be unbearable, even though that is the inescapable math.
An ethical double standard for Trump?
I still am not seeing the logic of any protest until at least Jan. 21
The logic is quite compelling. Bear in mind, Trump is a negotiator. For him all that matters is power. If his opponents can demonstrate that they too have political power, Donald's negotiating position becomes weaker. It makes perfectly logical sense for his opponents to apply pressure to him at all times.
--Hiram
"If his opponents can demonstrate that they too have political power,..."
Tee-hee. Keep it up, snowflakes, you are well on your way to giving Trump a SECOND term. Mostly, they are demonstrating their unseriousness and political impotence.
Keep it up, snowflakes, you are well on your way to giving Trump a SECOND term.
I don't think will be possible for Democrats to win four years from now. That being the case, why should we be concerned about jeopardizing our non existent prospects.
In the meantime we have a negotiator, a deal maker as president. That means we have to work hard to drive tough deals with him. If we are weak, he will walk all over us.
--Hiram
"An ethical double standard for Trump?"
Well, of course there is. Republicans only cared about the Clinton Foundation because it was a hammer they could use against Hillary. They weren't legitimately concerned about whether or not she was enriching herself or if there were conflicts of interest.
Consider the case of prospective SoS Rudy Giuliani. He has:
* done business with the Qatari government (this was supposed to be disqualifying for Hillary based on donations to the Clinton Foundation)
* had contracts with the company building the Keystone XL pipeline (State Department approval is required for the pipeline to be built)
* has given hundreds of big-dollar speeches (at $200K per) over the years. Are we going to demand to see the transcripts?
If Republicans truly cared about "conflicts of interest", people like Giuliani wouldn't even make it onto the short list -- and they'd be far more concerned about how the PEOTUS is already monetizing his election to the benefit of his company.
Everyone knows that Donald is a crook. That's what many people liked about him. It seems a bit late in the day to complain about his crookedness now.
Look, we tried ethics and it failed. So the American people decided to give conflict, ignorance and brute political force a try. Who know? Maybe it will work.
--Hiram
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