We have been arguing about many school related things... Then someone asked a simple question... "When was the last time anyone talked to a teacher?"
To which I replied. "Whenever I try to talk to teachers about any of these topics... They say that "I can not understand because I am not a Teacher..." Like teaching is somehow different from every other job, organization, management system, etc in the world. Apparently they and their situation is different from us normal humans..."
This however did get me thinking about:
To which I replied. "Whenever I try to talk to teachers about any of these topics... They say that "I can not understand because I am not a Teacher..." Like teaching is somehow different from every other job, organization, management system, etc in the world. Apparently they and their situation is different from us normal humans..."
This however did get me thinking about:
- What do teachers want?
- How do they think we can eliminate the achievement gap?
From the conversations I have had with Teachers, they want some pretty normal logical things:
- To be fairly compensated for their work
- To have job security and benefits
- To have capable Supervisors who support their efforts
- To have reasonable class sizes
- To have children enter their classroom adequately prepared for the content that is to be taught (ie pre-requisites, behaviors, etc)
- Parent(s) who want to and are capable of partnering in the development of their children.
- To have very disruptive students removed from their class (EBD, etc)
- Respect
Then there are those ones I question:
- To be able do things their own way (ie curriculum, content, etc)
- To be paid based on degrees and years served , rather than based on performance and responsibility levels
- To be able to resist the goals of the school board and administrators
What have I missed here and how do the above help to eliminate the academic achievement gaps?
23 comments:
maybe teachers want better pay and more respect. In my bldg most of the teachers struggle with misbehavior. Maybe with better pay and more respect more effective people would go into the field and the teachers who struggle the most could be replaced. As it is, I think it unlikely that any / many can be replaced with more effective teachers.
Yes better pay and more respect made my list...
Unfortunately most of us give up some job security to obtain higher compensation and more respect. We only keep our jobs if we perform really well.
in my bldg half the staff was new this year and we had trouble filling all the positions. Firing more people is not a good solution.
In talking to teachers, I find that #1 is respect, though higher pay and better "working conditions" (less classroom disruption, more latitude for teaching style) are part of that. I don't think I've told them yet-- I have better manners-- but if you want to be treated as the professionals you are, you cannot be just another union drudge. I see Ed Minn is already trying to dodge around Janus. Someday maybe teachers will get the choice.
Laurie,
It sure would be nice if your MPS friends shared more equally.
All,
Here is a piece somewhat related
I am going to bite here. I asked When was the last time anyone talked to a teacher. I have been lurking for a long time. Never comment and still between my email and anything else-prefer to remain anonymous. I am not doing this to get nit-picked on a comment; just looking for a little understanding. I will answer this in bits as I process things. I hope the formatting works. No politics intended.
We have been arguing about many school related things... Then someone asked a simple question... "When was the last time anyone talked to a teacher?"
To which I replied. "Whenever I try to talk to teachers about any of these topics... They say that "I can not understand because I am not a Teacher..." Like teaching is somehow different from every other job, organization, management system, etc in the world. Apparently they and their situation is different from us normal humans..."
Very different. I cannot just be gone for the day. I have two hours of work to prepare for the day so the kids can move forward academically. I do not just put in a movie when I am gone. Then, I deal with the aftermath of behavior issues when I return. I cannot leave without coverage. I can be docked pay for being gone for too many days. My kids have little intrinsic motivation to work. They do not get paid, many do not see value in any education. They are all going to play in the NBA or win the lottery. I cannot fire those that do not work.
I cannot just run to the bathroom. I have 30+ kids that can do dumb things at any time. If I am gone and something happens, I am liable. I go during passing time or plan time.
I work 10-15 hours outside of class every week. Some do more, some do less.
I am formally evaluated three times in a school year. That is three times in 170 days. No one in business has that kind of evaluation timeline. Each evaluation is at least two hours of work. Because of scheduling, I will be evaluated 2 times in 30 days. That needs to change. I have been teaching a LONG time. I am not the best, I am not even close to the worst. I have excellent classroom control . I am a different teacher than I was 25 years ago. My principal knows what I can and cannot do.
This however did get me thinking about:
What do teachers want?
How do they think we can eliminate the achievement gap?
It will not be eliminated unless parents get involved at home. Before they start school.
I could read at age 4-5. Because my mom had time to work with me. Many don't do that, or have time and expect the school to do it for them.
When I was student teaching-my evaluator said "You are not Johnny Carson. You are not here to entertain students" But all kids want today is to be entertained. We are fighting social media and everything else. Nothing we do in school is as exciting as that. I have to figure out how to parent, entertain and get them to learn all in one class period.
From the conversations I have had with Teachers, they want some pretty normal logical things:
To be fairly compensated for their work
Who does not want more money? I rarely complain about pay, but I taught in a small town in Iowa. I know low pay.
To have job security and benefits
That is why we have tenure. So we cannot be fired for stupid reasons like a disagreement with a supervisor. It provides due process. An investigation into an issue. Besides, do you want a highly qualified teacher fired and replaced by a sub who has no idea how to plan and teach for your kids class?
Don't tell me it is easier to fire someone in private business. It is not. It takes at least a year unless something egregious happens. It takes a performance plan and documentation.
To have capable Supervisors who support their efforts I do at the building level. Not sure at the district level.
To have reasonable class sizes
I have had classes of 36. Should be 28. Max. That whole average class size thing is smoke and mirrors.
To have children enter their classroom adequately prepared for the content that is to be taught (ie pre-requisites, behaviors, etc)
Those days are dead. Blame parents trying to be friends with their kids, social media and phones.
Parent(s) who want to and are capable of partnering in the development of their children.
Again-dead. If a kid is behind at reading at age 5, it will most likely be behind at age 15. We are expected to have 30% gains in a year. These are UNREAL goals thrust upon us. I do not think the brain can process that much without overload. Especially when kids do not have to think about much except playing games.
Tell your kid no once in a while and show them how to handle it.
To have very disruptive students removed from their class (EBD, etc)
School discipline policies do not hold water anymore. And thanks to the human rights commission lawsuit, suspensions are a pipe dream.
Respect
Then there are those ones I question:
To be able do things their own way (ie curriculum, content, etc)
Only to a point. Follow the standard. Find the best way to teach it. Refine it. Everyone needs to understand it will never be perfect. We cannot be everything to every student.
To be paid based on degrees and years served , rather than based on performance and responsibility levels
It is the only way. Not every class has a state mandated test. Those tests are crap. Pure crap. Teachers should not put things on tests that they did not teach. Yet the state does and gets away with it. We have no idea what is or is not on the tests.
Then...this idea. Since we are not allowed to see what is on a test. We are not allowed to look at the computer screen, but need to help them if they have a technical problem. Also, we are expected to monitor them at all times, up to 2 hours of testing, by walking around the room at all times. Yet, do not look at the screens, because we are not allowed to see what is on the test. WTH?????????????????? Sorry, I digress. Again, we don't do that to kids, why does the state get to?
Also, if evaluations are tied to tests, which teacher should be fired? The Kindergarten teacher that got the kid when they just got to school, the third grade teacher that had them for the last 6 weeks of school when they were tested, or the eight grade teacher that is their fourth school in 8 years.
We play the cards we are dealt. But the house always loses.
To be able to resist the goals of the school board and administrators
Not sure what to do with that yet.
Final thoughts:
I am not here to be the savior of the kid. I am here to teach. Give them skills to do better in life and hope they remember part of my class. To do well on the assessment at the end of the unit. Teachers are getting blamed for things beyond our control.
To reference another post about alternative teaching licenses-Why would anyone not in teaching want to leave and become a teacher? I cannot recommend it to anyone wanting a career change.
I have been teaching for 26 years. I will be actively looking OUTSIDE of education for the first time in a long time. It makes my heart hurt. I am scared. I am afraid of what is coming up from the Elementary schools. The district policies. Lack of discipline. My income not being able to cover local tax increases. Next years raise will/may cover the school referendum. Talk about irony.
I can problem solve. I have a science background. I can communicate well and am computer literate. I can work most software programs. Summers off are great but the humidity is not fun-so an air conditioned building is nice. (I work most summers anyway) I would not consider what I teach in as air conditioned. BTW-when it is really cold-my room feels 64F. I need good insurance, 401k and a salary between 80-90k
Anyone Hiring?
I knew co-workers who changed from teacher to technical writer... Or to technical trainer
Also, please consider signing your comments with a made up name. It helps us identify with you. Thanks John
As for the thoughts I have in response to your comments.
- There are many jobs in the private realm where people work fixed schedules, long days, have little freedom to leave their work area, etc. This does not make teaching highly differentiated.
- I agree that parent(s) need to be the driving factor.
- Many of us see our Supervisors everyday, meet with them bi-weekly and work closely with them. In essence we are being continually evaluated. Not sure what you mean by evaluated 3 times per year.
- Do the Parents and/or Students get to fill out surveys regarding your performance as part of your regular reviews? What criteria does your Spvr use to evaluate you if not? What are the consequences of a medium or poor review?
Agreed as noted above... Parents matter when it comes to the gap. I have a neighbor who used to blame the 6 year old and the school for her child not doing homework and learning... It was so sad...
If the compensation and benefits are logical and correct... Why again would a district / administrator terminate a highly proficient teacher? Do you think they want their schools and children to fail?
Actually terminating people in private industry is simple. We are "at will" employees and have pretty much no protections. Well that is unless you are old, a minority, disabled or a woman... (ie protected class)
And getting rid of those folks is not too hard... You just eliminate their position... And as long as you get rid of a similar young male... You are golden.
As for "adequately prepared"... Why don't the children get held back?
As for having highly disruptive students removed, I have heard some horror stories lately. It seems the administrations are scared to death of punishing troubled kids. Especially if they are a minority.
As for tests, hopefully they are written to be aligned with what you are supposed to be teaching. I mean the ACT seems to be a pretty good test and those questions always change.
As for the use of scores as one factor in the Teacher's Performance review. RDale used MAP Testing to track yearly learning. How you would you determine if the Teacher was reaching the kids?
Older professionals may reach a point where giving back by teaching is what they want to do.
They would be mature and may make good teachers.
Many of us see our Supervisors everyday, meet with them bi-weekly and work closely with them. In essence we are being continually evaluated. Not sure what you mean by evaluated 3 times per year.
Qcomp. State statutes. Formal evaluations. Direct observations and reflections from a mentor.
Non Qcomp schools have supervisor evaluations 3 times a year. Still state statute.
- Do the Parents and/or Students get to fill out surveys regarding your performance as part of your regular reviews? What criteria does your Spvr use to evaluate you if not? What are the consequences of a medium or poor review?
I had students evaluate me once. Did very well. Parents complain. Poor reviewed teachers get support to improve. If that does not happen, they can be released. I have seen tenured teachers released.
Actually terminating people in private industry is simple. We are "at will" employees and have pretty much no protections. Well that is unless you are old, a minority, disabled or a woman... (ie protected class)
And getting rid of those folks is not too hard... You just eliminate their position... And as long as you get rid of a similar young male... You are golden
Sorry-all of that makes you look bad. If you don't like a person and do not give support-you terminate the position.
As for "adequately prepared"... Why don't the children get held back?
That is for admin to decide. Not the teacher. They will say "studies show" it does not help the student. I don't know.
As for having highly disruptive students removed, I have heard some horror stories lately. It seems the administrations are scared to death of punishing troubled kids. Especially if they are a minority.
True. Blame the Department of Human Rights lawsuit. People that have never been in a classroom. Yes, African-American students have been punished more severe than whites at times. But---Not punishing students for some things is not the answer either. We are sacrificing teachers and safety for allowing kids feel good. No punishments mean more kids see they can get away with bad things. That is terrible for society itself.
As for tests, hopefully they are written to be aligned with what you are supposed to be teaching. I mean the ACT seems to be a pretty good test and those questions always change.
Teacher tests/assessments are much better at that than any Pearson test.
As for the use of scores as one factor in the Teacher's Performance review. RDale used MAP Testing to track yearly learning. How you would you determine if the Teacher was reaching the kids?
Again-Map tests reading and math. Which reading and math teacher. What about PE, Facs, Music, Social studies (very political). MAP tests the kid-not the teacher. Everyone learns differently at different times.
I doubt any teacher or test can truly determine if they are reaching the kid. My assessments test the standards. But if a kid does not care, then what?
The questions based on your comments are:
1. In Non Qcomp schools:
- What are the consequences of being "just an okay highly compensated" teacher?
- What are the rewards of being a "highly effective and energetic lower compensated" teacher?
- In other words are there any consequences to the reviews?
2. So you have had one formal customer review in your career? I always find that fascinating because almost every post-K12 training I have taken provides a survey form to see what is working and what is not. Often my supervisors have sent out surveys to my peers and internal customers to ensure they really know how I am doing. Relying on "complainers" seems dangerous because unhappy people seem to make more noise than happy people.
3. The employer is not responsible for "improving an employee", that is the employee's responsibility. The employer can provide guidance and support to the employee, but their first responsibility is to the customer. Especially if those customers are young children who only have one chance at that grade/ class.
Do you think having high paid teachers who deliver only modest performance is fair to the children?
Or would it be better to have a moderate performer who is paid a moderate wage with an educational aide in the room?
Please remember that I have no problem paying high performers or people with a lot more responsibility more income. It is just the idea of paying teachers in 2 nearly identical classroom a very different income just because one is older. Shouldn't the high paid one have more kids or better results?
4. Being "held back" could be a problem but it seems passing them through is just as bad?
5. Agreed. I am not sure if you read my story about the little black girl that threatened to cut the head off the little white girl... No consequences so the white folks left that school in a hurry, and I have to assume the little black girl kept behaving poorly... :-(
6. Ah, but you forget that the "Pearson, SAT and ACT Tests" are not there just for the kids. Our society sends a HUGE amount of money to the country's educational system and we expect a good return. These tests help society to understand what is working and what is not.
Before NCLB, millions of failing kids were just being passed through the system without consequences, now we know how many kids our system is failing and can do something to improve. Do you think it was okay that those millions of kids were just passed through?
7. I think society expects every child to have basic reading, math, and science academic knowledge / skills before they graduate. Anything above that is great, but not critical. The logic likely being that with the power to read and solve problems, they can continue life long learning.
Do you really think that a teacher does not know who is getting the class material? That is very scary...
Please remember that I think poor parenting is 70% of the problem. Without engaged parent(s) partnering with teachers, I can not imagine how hard it can be sometimes.
1. I do not know about Non Q-comp schools.
2. Kids are not customers. I do not like that analogy. I should not be in sales.
3. If we are investing money into an employee, then we should help them. They also need to work at improvement. That is support. We want everyone to be successful. If the teacher next to me is a failure, then my job becomes harder. I will help give them tools to succeed-for the good of the school.
6. The feelings on tests are mine. Not the district etc. It is a one day assessment. If the kid is in a bad mood-the test is bad. The teacher is punished. How is that fair to anyone. Minnesota paid Pearson 34 million dollars to administer the test. Teachers should also expect a better test.
-I know my successes by my assessments. My kids do well on my assessments. They try. They learn. My assessments are harder than a multiple choice tests. Open ended, essay, project, application, reflection. Life is not multiple choice without consequences.
1. I find that hard to understand, q comp is not that old.
2. If you do not see kids and parent(s) as customers... What do you see them as?
Maybe that is another problem with traditional public schools seeing themselves as a pseudo monopoly.They have a hard time remembering that they are a service provider who lives or dies depending on their quality of customer focus.
Tomorrow I am hosting customers from India who are going to be a royal pain. Now I am not in sales, but I will remember that my company survives by making them satisfied while not giving away too much. Customer focus is why we are a leading company in our industry.
3.Should the Vikings never change Offensive Coordinators then?
Sorry, the school's responsibility is to ensure that all children are successful... Not to coddle and nurse employees at the detriment to their students...
Maybe another problem with the pseudo-monopoly status... Folks in the system see helping and protecting peers as more important than helping kids.
In the private industry world, accomplishing the goals and satisfying the customers is job one. Perform well or you will be off the team. And if companies do keep propping up questionable employees, it is just a matter of time before they go out of business. Customers are not tolerant of businesses that have questionable employees.
6. Unfortunately as you noted above, kids can be passed through the system... Which means tests are needed to keep the system honest... Now if the system had self checks to make sure every child learned, the tests could go away... Not likely to happen since humans (even teachers) sometimes cheat..
As I was combing Izzie outside on this beautiful day, thought occurred to me.
I wonder if the employees of General Motors forgot to focus on the wants, needs and satisfaction of their customers... I mean the:
- guy on the assembly floor who did an inconsistent job of tightening bolts was not in sales, and yet his failures led to parts squeaking, rattling or falling off...
- woman in engineering who did created questionable designs was not in sales, and yet her actions allowed parts to fail...
- guy in the paint shop who skipped a couple of steps is not in sales and yet his actions meant that the paint pealed off pre-maturely...
- etc, etc, etc...
None of these folks were in sales and yet their questionable job performance led to generations of people who are unwilling to buy GM products..
My point is that every employee needs to remember why they are there if an organization is to succeed and thrive.
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