Transcript of GA Discussion. I am thinking of sending Brad Raffensperger a thank you card. No Secretary of State should have to put up with this insanity. :-)
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25 comments:
So what do you think of all the republicans in congress supporting Trump's attempted coup?
Trump built a business career carefully guarding what he said on phones, knowing criminal investigators might be listening in. Why did he suddenly stop?
--Hiram
Laurie,
I think it is bad, unfortunately I think some of them need to or they will lose their next primary election. As long as there is a big percentage of GOP citizens that are certain that Trump was somehow cheated, the politicians need to represent their constituents... Whether it is rational or not.
Now if both sides used the political debate to discuss how to improve the system and election confidence, that would be good. Unfortunately both side will play to their tribes as usual. :-(
Hiram,
Maybe just too much stress...
I can't believe you are still acting like there is some sort of equivalence between democrats and the GOP. Only one party has gone completely crazy.
Laurie,
I have not forgotten that the DEMs are against even the most basic photo ID laws to vote.
Has that somehow changed while the GOP has been imploding?
Wanting everyone to be able to vote is just like trying to steal an election.
While you have become more sensible in general, sometimes you still make idiotic comments.
Nobody is stealing any election.
Politicians are posturing to make their constituents happy.
At that quadrennial joint session, there is long precedent of Democratic Members of Congress raising objections to presidential election results, as they did in 1969, 2001, 2005, and 2017. And, in both 1969 and 2005, a Democratic Senator joined with a Democratic House Member in forcing votes in both houses on whether to accept the presidential electors being challenged.
As some DEMs have done in the recent past. Were they trying to steal the election?
Or were they trying to voice their displeasure and frustration?
How the Republican Party Went Feral
Ted Cruz is too biased for me. Here is some context for when dems objected in the past:
Congress' count of Electoral College votes could be most contentious in 144 years. Here are past dramatic moments
Unfortunately you like sites with pay walls...
The interesting thing about humans is they can rationalize how they are different.
I don't know if I trust Cruz, but did the DEMs object to the electoral count or not seems pretty black and white...
There is hope for the GOP Senators.
"Hoeven, who is up for reelection in 2022, said in a statement that his constituents "do not want Congress to determine their vote, and we should not set the precedent by doing it for other states."
"I do not plan to object. Additionally, the courts, not Congress, are responsible for resolving any electoral disputes and any irregularities should be adjudicated through the courts. This is what the Constitution outlines and that is how we should proceed," Hoeven added."
GOP Senators
USA today has free articles and the context of how and why objections were made in congress does matter.
and here is a little Krugman for you:
"The modern G.O.P., however, isn’t like anything we’ve seen before, at least in American history. If there’s anyone who wasn’t already persuaded that one of our two major political parties has become an enemy, not just of democracy, but of truth, events since the election should have ended their doubts.
It’s not just that a majority of House Republicans and many Republican senators are backing Trump’s efforts to overturn his election loss, even though there is no evidence of fraud or widespread irregularities. Look at the way David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler are campaigning in the Senate runoffs in Georgia.
They aren’t running on issues, or even on real aspects of their opponents’ personal history. Instead they’re claiming, with no basis in fact, that their opponents are Marxists or “involved in child abuse.” That is, the campaigns to retain Republican control of the Senate are based on lies.
On Sunday Mitt Romney excoriated Ted Cruz and other congressional Republicans’ attempts to undo the presidential election, asking, “Has ambition so eclipsed principle?” But what principle does Romney think the G.O.P. has stood for in recent years? It’s hard to see anything underlying recent Republican behavior beyond the pursuit of power by any means available.
So how did we get here? What happened to the Republican Party?
It didn’t start with Trump. On the contrary, the party’s degradation has been obvious, for those willing to see it, for many years.
Way back in 2003 I wrote that Republicans had become a radical force hostile to America as it is, potentially aiming for a one-party state in which “elections are only a formality.” In 2012 Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein warned that the G.O.P. was “unmoved by conventional understanding of facts” and “dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.”
If you’re surprised by the eagerness of many in the party to overturn an election based on specious claims of fraud, you weren’t paying attention.
Have you used up your free articles in the Atlantic?
Worse Than Treason
You can't both sides this one. The 1969 objection was related to one "faithless elector" in North Carolina, not an attempt to overturn the election results.
It's also true that none of these Electoral Challenges by Democrats were supported by the actual candidate and party apparatus themselves. Gore gaveled the 2001 challenge down himself. Kerry and Clinton weren't whipping folks up with misinformation to get the 2005 and 2017 challenges through. The DNC wasn't raising money to gin up throwing out the election results.
The Atlantic piece was interesting and he really dislikes politicians pandering to / representing their constituents.
I agree that Trump, Far Right news and GOP voters have put us in a terrible place. And yes it is unfortunate that some weak minded politicians are enabling the lies.
What do you think should be done when ~50 million Americans are certain that someone cheated?
I sure don't have the answer...
"What do you think should be done when ~50 million Americans are certain that someone cheated?"
Well, for starters, we need to vote out every single one of these politicians spreading the nonsense.
Beyond that, I distinctly recall being told to "fuck my feelings" four years ago. It seems like that advice would be useful to share to Trump supporters now. That's what happens when you lose an election.
Yeah... I don't think that will happen or accomplish much. :-)
They have the right to disagree and get over ridden whether we like it or not.
The joys of the US system...
On the upside... ~15 days until Biden is President...
"They have the right to disagree and get over ridden whether we like it or not."
Sure, but we don't have to pretend that these are good faith inquiries either. We should give these ideas and the people behind them the scorn they have rightfully earned.
Please feel free to feel what you feel.
I am not a big fan of scorn myself.
scorn: "the feeling or belief that someone or something is worthless or despicable; contempt."
"I am not a big fan of scorn myself."
Sure you are. You direct it all the time at people who are on welfare.
Scorn: "the feeling or belief that someone or something is worthless or despicable; contempt."
No. Definitely not what I feel in general towards people on welfare.
The closest I come to this feeling is towards people who enable child poverty, neglect and abuse to thrive.
I do can feel empathy and compassion for people and work to pressure them to improve there situation in life, they are not mutually exclusive.
Republicans are confronted with moral choices, that I am happy to say have never quite had to face myself. Oh, we have come close. The call on Bill Clinton were a whole lot closer than I would like. I am glad I will never see his name on a ballot against. I would much rather have someone else representing me in Congress than Ilhan Omar, but she is the choice of the voters, and congress people without seniority are fungible.
But what if the situations were reversed. What if my party nominated the moral and political equivalent of Donald Trump? Someone objectively not fit to be president? I just don't know. What about the second moral choice Trump presents? If a candidate from my party lost the popular vote but won in the electoral college, would I do what at least the arguably right thing is to do? Advocate for electors to vote the candidate who won the popular vote? Support a congressional process to make that happen? Would I do what I knew was the right thing to do. Or would I just give in to blind and narrow partisanship? I just don't know. Maybe both sides really do, when the choice arises, do it.
--Hiram
I think in our current reality when people on:
- the Left are absolutely certain that the people on the Right are evil and working to harm other humans, the environment, the world, etc
- the Right are absolutely certain that the people on the Left are evil and working to harm other humans, the economy, the world, etc
it becomes much easier for people to rationalize questionable choices and behaviors. :-(
Too bad they can't figure out that the gap between them is not that large...
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