People favor expansive Covid-19 relief
As you know, I am not a big fan of these massive money handouts that are feeding the national debt. Unfortunately I appear to be in the minority. I mean last year even the Trump True Believers were cheering them on. Whereas now they scoff at Biden's similar proposal.
30 comments:
Why do you hate disaster relief?
Moose
Two primary reasons:
1. It all has to be borrowed, and you know how I feel about our rapidly growing national debt.
2. I believe that individuals, businesses, cities, counties, states, etc should be more conservative with their normal finances. (ie maintain rainy day funds) Somehow our culture has shifted to where everyone seems to be reliant on the national piggy bank... Which has no money in it.
Here is some more regarding learning form recessions and depressions. If we keep borrowing our way out of them... What are people learning and what bigger disaster will it lead to for our kids?
Interesting piece, Before this $1.9 Trillion
Government has to spend during a recession/depression. History has proven that to be correct.
Moose
In an ideal world... Individuals, businesses, cities, counties, states, and the Feds would set aside money during good times so that they can continue spending during the rainy days.
The government "has to"? Not... There are positive and negative consequences to whatever the government chooses to do.
I agree that targeted federal spending during down times can be highly beneficial. Especially spending on infrastructure, public facilities, country improvement programs, etc. And even extending the basic unemployment insurance seems like a good idea.
However this ~12 month and $6 Trillion spendfest has been incredible. I mean we are writing checks to people and businesses that have not even been harmed by COVID.
And what will the USA have to show for it next year? New roads, bridges, plumbing, etc? Not...
It has done wonderful things for people who own stock. I mean all those people and businesses getting money they don't. They need somewhere to invest it.
"It has done wonderful things for people who own stock. I mean all those people and businesses getting money they don't. They need somewhere to invest it."
That just means they did it wrong, not that it was the wrong thing to do.
Moose
You are correct. They spent far too much in far too many questionable places.
And now they are going to borrow and spend another $1.9 TRILLION.... :-O
And give many billions of free money to middle class tax payers who are still working...
It also turns out that giving people money helps them get better jobs. Guaranteed Income experiments are also starting to show us the obvious truth that austerity doesn't work.
Moose
As you should know after all these years...
I am a big supporter of giving people a hand up.
though
I very much disagree with handouts.
So are you okay with holding recipients accountable for improving their situation?
Or do you just want to give freely and hope some percentage use tax dollars wisely?
Stockton California
Moose
That jury is definitely still out...
And again, let's say that 100 of the people "succeed" in the program and use the tax payers dollars wisely. And 25 of them do nothing but live out of the new trough of money.
What are you willing to do about those 25? Anything?
Please remember that the money is NOT being grown on trees... It is being taken out of another citizens pocket.
"What are you willing to do about those 25? Anything?"
The big picture is more important.
Moose
I am thinking that 20% of the population sucking at the teat of our society is a pretty important issue to deal with...
Our philosophies differ, as we both well know.
You see the wealth of this nation as a collective of individual wealth, which means for someone to get something, someone has to lose something.
I see the wealth of this nation as a whole. There is more than enough for everyone. If one person has nothing, another has too much. And that's not Socialism, it's Judeo-Christian values.
Moose
Wrong...
Judeo-Christian values stress charitable giving...
and frown upon sloth...
I must of missed the one about government should divide a nation's wealth and dole it out with regard to a citizens effort or property rights... :-)
I don't think you want Socialism
You want to be Robinhood.
Why is socialism suddenly on the table? Why has socialism become such a force in American politics? Is it because socialists are such effective advocates for their positions? Is it because they are so well financed? Is it because Socialism has such a marvelous historical track record? Or could it be just possi8ble that capitalism is deep in the process of failing us?
--Hiram
I really dislike when people use that imprecise language.
We live in a mixed economy and will continue to live in a mixed economy.
The question as always is who do we think can use the efforts of our hard work more effectively? Individual citizens or the politicians / bureaucrats?
Personally I bet on the individual citizens as you know.
See how good of a job they are currently doing.
And these sad results
"Wrong...
Judeo-Christian values stress charitable giving..."
Okay...well...the oldest Christian church in the world disagrees about hoarding wealth.
Moose
That we agree on... And hopefully the selfish hoarders end up in hell someday...
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
So you agree that if one person has $1B and another person has nothing, the one with money is obligated to the care of the poor person; that if someone in our society has nothing and others have more than they need, then that excess wealth is essentially stolen from those that need it.
Moose
Definitely NOT... None of us are owed anything by anyone...
As for stealing, it has nothing to do with the wealth of an individual. There are crooks who are poor, middle class and rich.
Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Elon Musk became wealthy by coming up with ideas that improved the lives for millions and/or billions of people and we were / are happy to pay for those benefits. No theft involved.
The decision for each of those men now is how to use their wealth for personal fulfillment.
That has included giving some away, funding improvement projects, opening new businesses that employ even more people, etc.
You seem obsessed with giving people free stuff and continuing their dependency...
Bezos Charity
And you seem to be obsessed with valuing people based on something other than what is intrinsic. We've had this discussion many times, and I don't feel like rehashing it. A person has value because they are a person.
Bezos could have paid all of his employees an extra $75,000 last year and still be as wealthy as he was at the beginning of the year. It appears that his wealth was stolen from those who actually perform the labor.
Moose
You have a strange concept of stolen.
When you pay for a meal, are you stealing from the restaurant just because you could have paid above fair market value?
As for the "value" of a human, yes every human is unique and important...
That does NOT mean that they are owed money from anyone else's wallet.
You're right. It means that their needs should be met irrespective of their "value" to society or the economy.
As for "stealing". Look no further than how quickly (or if) someone gets arrested for stealing $100 from a till vs shorting an employee $100 on a paycheck.
Both are theft, but the businessman is treated with kid gloves.
Moose
Only if you do not believe in personal property rights and do believe in communism / socialism.
You avoided answering my question.
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