Next people will want the Freedom to yell "FIRE!!!" in a crowded venue... :-(
Oh well, I guess our society will get what it deserves...
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26 comments:
What if there's a fire in the theater?
Then they should be able to prove their claim. Not just make it.
Marjorie Taylor Greene
Trumps Pants on Fire
Alex Jones
People have the right to free speech. That does mean that anyone else has to repeat or communicate their crazy...
List of Twitter Suspensions
I just get a kick out of people who would never dream of buying a bond from Donald Trump think twitter should be required to go into business with him.
--Hiram
Media companies and I am including here, social media companies, are under not obligation, constitutional or otherwise, to publish anyone's speech. Social media has greatly expanded the ability of an ordinary communicator to reach an audience, but isn't without it's limits.
In the early years, we saw what more or less unlimited access to the internet looked like. As I recall, it was an era of pop up ads and male enhancement solicitation. A crackdown on freedom occurred, and as far as I am concerned, the result was a much improved internet.
--Hiram
Apparently folks like Jerry are okay with Alex Jones denying that children died at Sandy Hook...
Or Trump spouting this lunacy "Dems want to shut your churches down, permanently. Hope you see what is happening."
Or terrible things like this said by MTG
"“How do you get avid gun owners and people that support the Second Amendment to give up their guns and go along with anti-gun legislation?” Greene asked in an online video. “You make them scared, you make them victims and you change their mindset and then possibly you can pass anti-gun legislation. Is that what happened in Las Vegas?”
“I don’t believe (Paddock) pulled this off all by himself, and I know most of you don’t either,” Greene said."
Here is a classic of Trump's stupidity and / or dishonesty...
"“Twitter is completely stifling FREE SPEECH” by adding a fact-check label to Trump’s tweet."
Media companies are so exquisitely both sided. On the one hand, they are excused of blocking free speech. On the other hand, they are accused of enabling manipulation by sophisticated and well financed bad actors. We are told to hate Facebook for doing pretty much exactly what we hate twitter for not doing. And nobody on any side who maintains a nominal level of courtesy is affected by the disputes at all.
--Hiram
Just riddle me this: Who are we going to choose to decide what is "disinformation"? Will it be somebody from Biden's new "Ministry of Truth"?
Freedom of the press has always belonged to the owners of the press. And press owners have always had the power to decide what their presses print. Twitter decided what was disinformation or what was otherwise unsuitable for their system. That will continue to be the case if someone else acquires it.
--Hiram
Hiram, I agree that has been their role and responsibility, though folks like Jerry seem to want them to be forced to spread lies...
Jerry,
Seems pretty well explained.
Now have you stopped trusting the FBI and other Law / Order agencies?
LOL. Once again, you believe what the government tells you. Like "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor" or "Joe Biden knew nothing about Hunter's business."
To properly deal with "misinformation," you must have a trustworthy and completely objective person WITH PERFECT INFORMATION. That isn't possible. And the only way ANYBODY gets perfect information is for every information source to be "heard" and examined by every other source. That gets you the adage "the solution to free speech is more free speech." The OPPOSITE of free speech is censorship or propaganda, which by definition is "spreading lies." Is that the "freedom" you support?
Do you agree with Trump's perception then?
“Twitter is completely stifling FREE SPEECH” by adding a fact-check label to Trump’s tweet."
And then does this mean that the FBI, Homeland security and the publishing companies should ignore the efforts by foreign actors to manipulate US citizens?
For someone who fears the ignorant poor masses and their votes, you sure seem to want to support their brainwashing by bad actors. :-O
Same basic question. Who are the "fact checkers" who have such perfect information that they should be allowed to determine truth? Why cannot our government experts contradict foreign "disinformation" or "propaganda" through free speech? If Putin, who still has a Twitter, says "I'm not going to invade Ukraine," isn't it reasonable for somebody, in or out of government, to point out the massive military buildup on the border?
"For someone who fears the ignorant poor masses and their votes, you sure seem to want to support their brainwashing by bad actors. :-O"
And a warning: this type of "misinformation" will not be tolerated. It is a damnable lie.
Who are the "fact checkers" who have such perfect information that they should be allowed to determine truth?
For newspapers, they are often reporters who cover that particular beat.
Why cannot our government experts contradict foreign "disinformation" or "propaganda" through free speech?
I am sure they can. The problem is credibility.
If Putin, who still has a Twitter, says "I'm not going to invade Ukraine," isn't it reasonable for somebody, in or out of government, to point out the massive military buildup on the border?
Sure, the government did, and it wasn't believed by a lot of people who didn't regard the government as credible. I myself was skeptical, not so much because I didn't believe the government but because I didn't think Putin was that stupid. I watch a lot of Russia Today, and they run a lot of documentaries, on Donbas. Maybe Putin watched them too and believed them.
--Hiram
Jerry,
It was pretty clear that 20 children died at Sandy Hook Elementary and yet you would support Alex Jones spreading lies that it did not happen.
The State legislatures, the US Congress, dozens of US Courts and the Electoral college all agreed that Biden won the election. Yet you want to force Twitter to publish opposing unproven views?
Or MTG saying this, and forcing a private business to publish it?
"The Democrats are the party of pedophiles. The Democrats are the party of princess predators from Disney. The Democrats are the party of teachers, elementary school teachers trying to transition their elementary school-age children and convince them they’re a different gender. This is the party of their identity, and their identity is the most disgusting, evil, horrible thing happening in our country."
It is surreal what you seem to support. Lies and forcing private businesses to publish them? :-O
And as for your supporting the suppressing of legal votes by poor and young people.
That was proven long ago and many times.
It was pretty clear that 20 children died at Sandy Hook Elementary and yet you would support Alex Jones spreading lies that it did not happen.
I would certainly support Jones' right to say that. But Jones has no right to be listened to and he has no right to have his remarks published by others. As for the others, I think it is a perfection reasonable decision for someone to say "I don't want to be in the business of publishing those remarks". I am not claiming that is the right or wrong choice here, just as a reasonable choice made by people who had the right to make it. Freedom of the press must mean not just that those who own the press have the right to print what they want, but also not to print what they don't want. People have the right to say anything they want to me, but nowhere does it say that I have an obligation to repeat what they say.
--Hiram
No discernment whatsoever. Twitter is not a publisher and doesn't claim to be. They are a public utility serving free speech. And just because you object to a particular speaker does not mean you, or government on your behalf, or some private "public square" authority has the right to prevent their free speech unless it is proven harmful. DENYING that free speech and allowing all views to be heard is the quickest way to shoot down silly, unprovable statements like "There is nothing of interest on Hunter Biden's laptop."
Now, debate among yourselves. I'm out.
I would find it funny if Jerry or another Conservative ran Twitter...
I wonder how long it would take for them to try to block views that he disagreed with?
I mean look at how FL tried to punish Disney for disagreeing with them . :-O
Twitter is not a publisher and doesn't claim to be.
If you don't like the word "publisher", you are welcome to choose your own. In any event, it is under not obligation to make available someone else's text.
They are a public utility serving free speech.
Twitter is a business. It serves it's shareholders. It will serve Musk if he acquires it's shares. Twitter is not the government and is not subject to the first amendment. What you seem to have done here is reverse the premise and conclusion. In effect, you are saying because it repeats speech rather freely, it must be a utility. Well, it's not the electric company, and even if it were the electric company, the fact is, the electric company is under no obligation to repeat what I say either.
You may not like the way twitter conducts it's business. I may not either. But neither one of us runs twitter, and neither one of us is accountable to it's shareholders.
--Hiram
There was and possibly still is a conservative alternative to twitter called Parler. A lot of people I know said they were leaving twitter for Parler. The problem was that it didn't work very well and soon became a site for pornographers. Running a tech company isn't as simple as it seems. If and when Musk does complete the deal for twitter, he is going to learn a lot about that.
--Hiram
Something I find amazing about powerful is how little appreciation they have for the complexity of getting things done. It's like with Putin. I watch a lot of Russian propaganda and one of the things they say is that Putin did everything he could to reach a peaceful resolution of the issues he had with Ukraine. He complains he received no help at all in those endeavors from America and NATO and he blames us for it. He claims the failure of those efforts left him no option besides the military option. It never seemed to occur to him that he didn't have that option either. He thought he could press a button or send an email, and Ukraine would be his.
I wonder if Musk is like that. Has he really thought through all the complex issues a social media company presents? Does he really think they will go away once he owns one?
--Hiram
I am sure he will get very tired of being called to Congress to answer for whatever choices he has made.
Especially after the first foreign, far right or far left actor manipulates people with lies.
I remains to be seen what power Musk has and to what degree he is accountable to someone else. He isn't writing a check for the company, he has backers, and those backers wouldn't be happy to see their money jeopardized by bad decisions.
Social media companies make the decisions they make so their product will be better, I would suggest. Those business realities won't change because Musk owns one of them.
--Hiram
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