Friday, January 12, 2018

Racist, Bigoted or Logical

So is preferring to have immigrants from wealthy first world countries racist, bigoted or logical? VOX Trump's Long History
"Speaking about immigration in January 2018, Trump asked, in reference to Haiti and African countries, "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" He then suggested that the US should take more people from countries like Norway. The implication: Immigrants from predominantly white countries are good, while immigrants from predominantly black countries are bad. "
When some one looks for a business partner, employee or son-in-law, does one start looking in places where fewer educated and culturally similar people live? As usual, I think Trump could phrase his comments much more tactfully, however he may have a point. We as Americans really need to determine what we want our immigration policy to accomplish.

By the way, the following comment didn't make it by the Minnpost moderators when I tried to post on 2 different articles. MP Drop in Refugees and MP Dreamers for a Wall I will never understand their guidelines...
"Now I truly do feel for the refugees of the world and the illegal workers in MN, however I have to wonder why so many Minnesotans want to prioritize their needs above the unlucky kids who are US Citizens and MN residents.

You know the kids I am talking about. The children born into generational poverty and are being raised by a "parent(s)" who simply is not mature, knowledgeable, self disciplined, financially stable, etc enough to be an effective parent(s).

Therefore the child(ren) fall behind academically, behaviorally, physically, etc. And then they usually get enrolled with many more children like themselves in a school that struggles to overcome the challenge this presents. Especially since the Parent(s) and the Local society are incapable or unwilling to help?

The unfortunate reality is that settling refugees in MN and harboring illegal workers in MN takes resources away from the most vulnerable residents of our state (ie our unlucky children) and puts downward pressure on wages. Thoughts? "

I agree that the USA needed a lot of the world's needy and down trodden to move here back when we had an excess of land, factories, etc.  Therefore we had a very open immigration policy to encourage laborers to come here.  Now that we have a large population of citizens who are struggling to succeed, shouldn't we adjust our immigration policies accordingly?

Instead of inviting the world's down trodden here, how can we help them improve their home countries?


John said...

I do find these interpretations fascinating. CNN Comment not out of character

"It also appears to run counter to the idea that traditional presidents repeatedly invoke: that the American dream does not discriminate on the basis of race or origin but hinges on an individual's character, industry and willingness to embrace a set of national values traced to the enlightenment.

"I think we all collectively should be a little bit frightened. That is the President of the United States, and he is not appealing to the better angels of our nature or our nation's values," former CIA and National Security Agency chief Michael Hayden told CNN's Erin Burnett.

CNN political analyst David Gergen said Trump's message was "if you are not white, you are not welcome. We have never had that message before."

Anonymous said...

So is preferring to have immigrants from wealthy first world countries racist, bigoted or logical?

Yes, it is.


Sean said...

"When some one looks for a business partner, employee or son-in-law, does one start looking in places where fewer educated and culturally similar people live?"

Here's the problem. Even if you accept the concept that some countries of black and brown folks are "shitholes", that doesn't mean the people coming here from there are uneducated losers. In fact, the people who do immigrate to the U.S. from such countries tend to be the best, brightest, and wealthiest -- because they are the ones who can afford it. Since 2010, about 45% of all legal immigrants who have entered the country had a college degree (41% for African immigrants from 2008-2012). Both of those figures are, you'll note, 10%+ higher than the rate in the current U.S. population.

The notion of "culturally similar" is racism. America has always prided itself of being a melting pot. Saying we don't want people from Africa, but Norway is OK is racism. Sorry if that offends your tender sensibilities, but it's true. That's what you voted for.

You voted for the vulgar racist instead of the woman so you could get a tax cut. Enjoy it while it lasts.

John said...

Having visited a few of these places. They are not "shitholes" because black or brown people live there. They are "shitholes" because they are still third world countries.

As for demographics of immigrants... What is your source, this one does not seem to match. It looks like "chain migration" is the big driver.

Again for my question, what do we need in an immigration policy to help American citizens and our country become more successful?

John said...

As for tax cuts... I apparently made a really poor choice since mine are going up. :-)

Good thing the stock market gains will pay for the higher taxes plus some.

Sean said...

Educational Attainment of Immigrants:

Center for Immigration Studies

African immigrants:

Census: Foreign Born Population from Africa

Sean said...

"I apparently made a really poor choice"


John said...

I am still pondering this claim. "The notion of "culturally similar" is racism."

Race Defined:
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. A population so related.
3. Anthropology.

a.(no longer in technical use) any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics. arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. A socially constructed category of identification based on physical characteristics, ancestry, historical affiliation, or shared culture:
Her parents wanted her to marry within her race.

d.a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.

John said...

I'll look at your links later, however I think that any sources who choose to combine legal and illegal immigration in their web site are suspect.

"42.4 million immigrants (both legal and illegal)"

I am very pro legal immigration and find it offensive that folks want to group law abiding process following individuals with those who do not respect the people of the USA enough to follow its laws.

Sean said...

"I am still pondering this claim. "The notion of "culturally similar" is racism.""

Let me expound further. What is being said when one says that we want to bring in folks who are "culturally similar"? Which culture is the reference point here? Is it African-Americans? Asian-Americans? Hispanics? Or is it White folks of European descent? Well, when the President says "Norway", the answer is clear.

"any sources who choose to combine legal and illegal immigration in their web site are suspect."

CIS is a right-wing organization that largely shares your views on this issue.

John said...

As for this... "Well, when the President says "Norway", the answer is clear."

It seems that the Left and Right clearly see this "clear" differently.

I personally see it as wanting "first world" immigrants rather than third world immigrants.

If instead of Norway he had said Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, China, etc... Would that have been better?

Sean said...

"If instead of Norway he had said Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, China, etc... Would that have been better?"

It's always easier to defend somebody's controversial statements when you pretend that they said something other than what they actually said.

And, when you disconnect that statement from a 40-year history of saying and doing other racist things.

Sean said...

I mean, come on. The guy has:

* said Haitian immigrants "all have AIDS"
* said Nigerian immigrants come from "huts"
* defended white supremacists after one of them killed a counter-protestor
* said Mexican immigrants were "rapists"
* accused Muslims of not turning in terror suspects
* spent years of his life claiming -- without evidence -- that the first black President wasn't born in this country
* been investigated for housing discrimination against blacks multiple times
* ran a full-page ad calling for the execution of five black teenagers falsely accused of raping a white woman
* said a judge of Mexican descent couldn't apply the law fairly
* attacked a Gold Star mother over her Muslim religion

If you can't see it, it's because you are choosing not to see it.

John said...

Since economics, education levels and race are unfortunately so closely related in our world, I think Liberals will see any comments about the first 2 as racist... Whether they are or not.

I struggled with trying to think of a first world country where European and Asians were a minority...

South Africa may have made the list but they are kind of different.

And India is very mixed up.

Sean said...

If you want to attract higher-skilled immigrants, say so. "Norway" is not a skill. "Norway" is meant to invoke a mental image of a person who looks a certain way.

Anonymous said...

Maybe Drumpf means he wants Socialists with national healthcare and free college when he refers to Norway.

But they don't want to come to this shithole country.


Sean said...

A career intelligence analyst who is an expert in hostage policy stood before President Donald Trump in the Oval Office last fall to brief him on the impending release of a family long held in Pakistan under uncertain circumstances.

It was her first time meeting the president, and when she was done briefing, he had a question for her.

"Where are you from?" the president asked, according to two officials with direct knowledge of the exchange.

New York, she replied.

Trump was unsatisfied and asked again, the officials said. Referring to the president's hometown, she offered that she, too, was from Manhattan. But that's not what the president was after.

He wanted to know where "your people" are from, according to the officials, who spoke off the record due to the nature of the internal discussions.

After the analyst revealed that her parents are Korean, Trump turned to an adviser in the room and seemed to suggest her ethnicity should determine her career path, asking why the "pretty Korean lady" isn't negotiating with North Korea on his administration's behalf, the officials said.

NBC: Trump’s history of breaking decorum with remarks on race, ethnicity

John said...

At least it is our "shit hole" country... And a whole lot of people want to come here. Maybe our Liberals should move to Norway... That would make a lot of people happy. :-)

Thankfully neither us can read his "genius / disturbed" mind... So we will each have judge his "intent" as we will.

Sean said...

"Thankfully neither us can read his "genius / disturbed" mind... So we will each have judge his "intent" as we will."

We don't have to read his mind. The actions are in and of themselves racist.

John said...

Whatever... :-)

Anonymous said...

'At least it is our "shit hole" country...'

Yeah, I'm not really into jingoism. If other countries are objectively doing something better for its citizens than we are - and Norway obviously is - I want us to learn from them.


John said...

Please remember that Norway was apparently struggling until it struck oil.

Also they control immigration very closely.

Norway Integration

Maybe there are some things we can learn.

John said...

Here is a VOX Article describing why folks are certain regarding Trump

Anonymous said...

When some one looks for a business partner, employee or son-in-law, does one start looking in places where fewer educated and culturally similar people live?

I think people do, but that's something we have learned is a form of prejudice.


Laurie Wagner said...

It seems to me that we should have a balanced immigration policy. We should continue to admit refugees because as a wealthy country we have an obligation to do this. Also it would be smart to admit highly skilled people in areas that we have shortages of people with the skills.

John said...

Birds of a feather flock together.

The challenge is chain migration. It likely throws things out of balance.

Sean said...

"The challenge is chain migration. It likely throws things out of balance."

We know it doesn't. Again, refer back to the CIS stats. The immigrants coming in have higher levels of college attainment than non-immigrants.

What "balance" are you looking for exactly?

Laurie said...

I found this perspective on the "shithole country" of Haiti interesting:

This is how ignorant you have to be to call Haiti a ‘shithole’

I believe we have a moral obligation to let Haitian immigrants stay and let others continue to immigrate here. ( I know way too little to have any specific idea as to how many Haitian immigrants is appropriate)

John said...

They also have higher levels of no high school education.

Back to my question, how do we balance our immigration policy to help the unsuccessful American citizens?

Laurie said...

It seems to me that we would want a country where employers can find workers, something near full employment, which we seem to have now. I think it makes sense to consider the needs of employers to find workers into formulating our immigration policies.

For example the twin cites needs more substitute teachers, as we often cannot fill positions when staff members are absent and the rest of the staff often has to cover. It would help a little I'm sure to raise the pay level, but schools have tight budgets.

Anonymous said...

Birds of a feather flock together.

Sure. It's an argument, such as it is, prejudice that's always been made.


John said...

At some point we need to decide we want wages to increase and unemployment to fall for those with only HS degrees or less.

Flooding that market is not helping.

Anonymous said...

I don't think immigration has any impact at all on wage policy.


John said...

I guess macro economics was not your best class.

Supply decrease. People pay more or change to a substitute good.

John said...

At some point Laurie’s school will need to pay more for substitutes or they will need to cancel school.

Laurie said...

I don't think we have flooded the market because we have 4% unemployment and some businesses are having trouble finding workers. I see lots of help wanted signs in retail / restaurant industries when I am out and about. My impression is that we are close to full employment and have about the right amt of immigrant labor currently (in MN)

I did see that Walmart now pays $11 / hr to get workers. I think that is a good wage (though still hard to live on in a big city)

Anonymous said...

Supply decrease. People pay more or change to a substitute good.

Depends on the elasticity of the demand curve.

People don't know what prices are and how they work to an amazing degree.


Anonymous said...

When you buy something, how often does the question of supply affect your decision? When you hire a baby sitter, to what extent is your decision as to what to pay determined by market research? When your boss gives you a raise, was it based on analysis of whether there was a supply of alternative employees who could do your job at a given price?

It is true that supply and demand issues affect some prices. But lots of prices are established that have nothing to do with supply and demand. When is the last time you determined how much you would pay for a bunch of bananas by checking the price they were going for on ebay?


John said...

NPR Why are Wages barely Rising

So apparently many people are still not participating yet.

Also, remember that ~4% is an average. Unemployment rates for technical people like me are likely negative. More openings than applicants.

However the rate for low knowledge low skill folks is much higher than 4%.

The Hill Explanation

John said...

Thankfully banana prices are usually pretty stable since they must ship well. Where as I know that straw berry supply swings significantly as does their price.

Laurie said...

Minnesota is feeling the pinch from a record number of job openings

It seems my impression was right and we do have a shortage of entry level workers in MN (and as usual you your talking points are off base.)

Anonymous said...

there is never a shortage of lousy jobs.


John said...

You are so naughty... :-) Look deeper. I wouldn't call 8% for Blacks low...

MPR Unemployment Fact Check

See Unemployment by Race graph

Participation Rate still Lower than in 2000

Laurie said...

the problem is not lack of jobs. If someone (black or otherwise) is unemployed in the twin city area they have other issues and not lack of job openings holding them back. We need more immigrants not fewer in our current economy.

John said...

So you a Liberal are truly siding with companies who want to keep wages down?

"Minnesota employers that depend on low-wage hires are near a breaking point."

"Many are opting to leave jobs open rather than offer more money, as persistently low inflation makes it difficult to charge customers more."

"A Star Tribune analysis of the state’s data found that during 2016 and 2017, the overall increase in job openings was mainly driven by a bigger-than-usual jump in unfilled jobs that pay less than $15 an hour."

"Meanwhile, employers who count on an ample supply of low-wage workers are starting to wonder whether they need to change their business model.

Two Stooges’ Asproth said he’s uncertain what will give first in the competing forces — workers wanting higher pay and customers wanting lower prices — that shape the profits and viability of restaurants and other low-wage employers."

John said...

Do you want that $15 / hour livable wage for low skill / low academic employees or not?

Do you want minorities to attain full employment?

What are you thinking?

Everything is coming together to drive up wages:
- fewer illegal workers
- more people retiring
- businesses booming
- labor participation rate increasing

And you really want to bring in more immigrants to help the businesses avoid raising wages?

Even as we are facing the future automation of many jobs... Which will reduce the demand and put downward pressure on wages.

What is your rationale?