Well I am happy to see this ruling by SCOTUS. By the way, my scoring is that SCOTUS made LGBT marriage legal. And now they have acknowledged the importance of religious freedom in our country.
"Kennedy wrote that there is room for religious tolerance, pointing specifically to how the Colorado commission treated Phillips by downplaying his religious liberty concerns.
"At the same time the religious and philosophical objections to gay marriage are protected views and in some instances protected forms of expression," Kennedy wrote, adding that the "neutral consideration to which Phillips was entitled was compromised here."
"The commission's hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment's guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion," Kennedy said, adding to say that the case was narrow.
"The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market," the opinion states."
31 comments:
Your scoreboard is wrong.
Religion - 1
CCRC - 0
This was a narrow ruling, which only tangentially concerns LGBT individuals.
Moose
It is going to be real hard for SCOTUS to rule against the 1st amendment... But time will tell...
Sure it will be. So when a Christian business (as if there is such a thing) decides to not provide a service for a Jewish event, which religion wins?
Moose
The case stands for the proposition that people need to stifle the giggling when people try to argue that their faith requires them to deny gay people cake.
--Hiram
Moose,
Hopefully both of them respect each other's different beliefs and do not take it to court.
That is what tolerance is all about.
Unfortunately the LGBT folks feel entitled and hurt, so they are being petty and taking people to court.
By the way, have there been any new research advances that prove LGBT is genetic or physiological yet?
And not just a chosen way of life?
Hiram,
Who would you detest being forced to work with?
Someone who's close proximity would make your skin crawl?
A person who's behaviors are reprehensible to you?
The act would disturb your peace of mind and sleep?
Is there anything that you truly care about that much?
I get it. Shut up and sit in the back of the bus.
Moose
"Hopefully both of them respect each other's different beliefs and do not take it to court."
Christians love to play the victim, so if a Christian is discriminated against by someone of another religion, you can count on it going to court.
Moose
Moose,
I think LGBT folks should be treated equally unless they face a religious objection. The religious folks have the first amendment on their side.
Though I think being LGBT is like being Black, Female, old, etc... (ie genetic / physiological)
We currently have NO way to prove it... :-(
As for Jews and Christians, I am always amazed that they get along pretty well in America.
"I think LGBT folks should be treated equally unless they face a religious objection."
So...Sharia Law. Fun.
Moose
Who would you detest being forced to work with?
Somebody who makes clicking noises with their teeth.
Someone who's close proximity would make your skin crawl?
I would imagine so.
A person who's behaviors are reprehensible to you?
No.
The act would disturb your peace of mind and sleep?
Lots of people and things disturb me but I sleep just fine. The world is not about me, something I learned in my 30s.
Is there anything that you truly care about that much?
One thing I know is that other people's marriages are no business of mine. Never in my life have I gotten a wedding invite that along with the meat and vegetarian choice, have I ever been asked my opinion of the match. No one has ever cared. The vanity displayed in this case, the belief that a wedding is somehow all about the cake is inexplicable to me.
The brutality of the politics displayed here is one thing that disturbs. In order to hassle people who are otherwise planning what should be the happiest day of their lives, cheap legal hucksters are trying to make it all about the cake. They degrade the institution of marriage.
--Hiram
Moose,
Yes. Devout Muslims should not be forced to do things that are against their faith. Unless their faith requires them to truly harm another citizen.
And know I don't see requiring the couple to find a different baker, photographer, florist, doctor, etc as harming someone.
As Hiram notes in his as usual evasive response... It is too bad that LGBT folks are making this topic political. If someone does not want to do business with you... Just give your money to someone else.
Instead these couples are taking people to court for political reasons.
Asking someone to bake a cake doesn't "truly harm" them, either.
Treating religious people with undue deference leads to tyranny.
Moose
It is a cake... Not the inquisition... :-)
Exactly. No reason to get bent out of shape to have to make a cake for two men.
Moose
I know you are going to have a hard time accepting this, but there truly are people who think your chosen lifestyle is going to doom you to an eternity in hell.
To them this about much more than a cake. They believe that working for you to commit this sin would make them complicit in your fall from grace, or they are just too sad for you to take part.
So for you and me it is just a cake, to them it is your soul and/or theirs.
Would you willingly take part in a wedding where the bride was a 12 year old child?
I mean this was a norm for millennia... How can it be wrong?
Baking a cake is not taking part in a wedding. I would sell the cake (and maybe notify the authorities)
Battle Lost, War Won?
"Would you willingly take part in a wedding where the bride was a 12 year old child?"
I would call the authorities, since such a thing is illegal.
"So for you and me it is just a cake, to them it is your soul and/or theirs."
They can start by proving that people have souls. Then the conversation may begin.
Moose
Will that happen about the time you prove that being LGBT is equivalent to Race, Sex, Age, etc... :-)
It seems both sides are relying on faith...
And saying "Trust Me, I know better than you"...
Trust me, I know better than you whether or not I've been gay my entire life.
Regardless, a proper discussion or argument should start with things that are known. Whether humans have souls does not pass that test.
Moose
The religious folks are just as certain that souls and heaven exist...
As you are that you had no choice in the life style you are living...
If you doubt this, you really need to spend sometime talking to a few true believers. How do you expect them to respect you if you don't respect them?
That's laughable. I believe that humans have souls, but I'm not foolish enough to think I have proof. It is not a known fact. If it was, it wouldn't be a matter of faith.
It is a known fact that homosexuals know from an early age that they are not like everyone else. You just have to listen to them and not assume you know what the hell you're talking about. And if it's impossible for you to extrapolate from your own experience of discovering your sexuality to those whose sexuality is different from yours, you're not trying very hard. I don't have to have ever had heterosexual desires to know that for others it's the only thing they've ever known.
"As you are that you had no choice in the life style you are living..."
I do not have faith in this regard. I have knowledge, experience, and understanding. The same as you do regarding your own sexuality.
Moose
"fact that homosexuals know from an early age that they are not like everyone else"
Source please.
I have to wonder if highly religious people
"know from an early age that they are not like everyone else"
Here are some interesting discussions of the topic.
Reason Piece
Dan J Mitchell
The Cake Ruling Wasn’t “Narrow,” It Was a Punt
Excellent link.
"Source please."
We've had this discussion many times before. I will not do it again. All you have to do is examine your own life. But you've shown yourself to be completely obtuse in this regard.
Moose
Moose,
Please remember that I personally believe you.
My point is that without science to back it up, it is just a belief...
And the other American citizens are free to disagree.
Just as I believe their is a God / Higher Purpose... Others are free to disagree with me.
And when they say that they can't support gay weddings, or gay pride, or whatever because it puts their and my immortal soul in peril, I will also ask for science to back up that argument.
Using Occam's Razor, the most likely answer is that millions upon millions of gay people are telling the truth and that it is real.
The same can not be done for the religious argument.
Evangelical Christianity (in all its fear, warmongering, and hypocrisy) will be the iceberg that sinks the Titanic that is America. Mark my words.
Moose
Or...
We can just let people do business with people of like beliefs and stop the law suits...
What a unique idea...
Who in the world wants a photographer, florist, baker, doctor, etc to be working with them? When they don't want to be there.
The whole topic is silly.
Let's force dogs and cats to get along...
By the way, I am pretty sure there are more Evangelical Christians in the USA than LGBT individuals...
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