Monday, June 18, 2018

Republicans Approve of Breakup Policy

CNN Majority oppose policy that causes family separation, but Republicans approve


I guess I personally agree with the administration's "zero tolerance" policy of criminally charging people who cross the border illegally.  I mean the goal of walls, border patrols, and now criminal charges is to dissuade people from trying to enter our country illegally.  Which as you know, I whole heartedly support.  (too many people are hurt / killed during the migration and we want to encourage legal migration with back ground checks and searches completed)


I think the previous policy of catch, release and set a court date seemed stupid and not effective.  It was like saying please attempt to violate our border...  And if we don't catch you, you win...  And if we do catch you, you get to stay here for awhile and may get lucky.  I mean how is that supposed to dissuade anyone.


That said... How can we enforce our laws and our borders without breaking up families? Here are some possibilities, if border control catches a family... 
  1. Give them a bus ticket back to their home country
  2. Drive them back to the Mexican border and drop them off.
  3. Setup refugee tent cities on the border and deposit people there until their court date
Now the big problem though is that having toddlers removed from their Mom's arms seems like political suicide to me.  What was Trump and the GOP thinking?


Thoughts?

52 comments:

John said...

Here is one of those Liberal voices who expresses outrage but offers no good answers...

VOX Family Separation

John said...

VOX Immigration Wars in USA and Germany

And for those who say we are not being immigrant friendly... Please remember that we are at record high levels...

Maybe limiting our intake to LAW ABIDING immigrants who apply, get approved and then come may be a good idea for awhile.

jerrye92002 said...

Gee, if we had a wall, NONE of this would be happening.

And I see Trump has hung the Democrats on their own faux outrage. For doing nothing during the Obama years when this was the law, and for doing nothing now except howling about the law THEY refuse to change.

Seems to me like Trump playing hardball.

Anonymous said...

What in God's name is wrong with you people?

jerry, your despicable take is completely expected. Every reasonable mainline Christian denomination has denounced this immoral policy change enacted by the Trump Administration.

Here are the facts:

The first few paragraphs outline the NEW policies that have been enacted. Your lies will not prevail, jerry.

Trump Policy

Snopes

And just remember, it may be legal, but so was slavery, the internment of Japanese American citizens, and the slaughter of Jews. Your soul will be judged for your inaction in the face of the abject cruelty these families and children have been subjected to at the hands of our government.

There is NOTHING righteous about this.

And John, you made a Faustian bargain by voting for Trump. You are complicit, despite (or perhaps because of) your inability to ever pick a side in anything of any true importance.

The both of you are beneath contempt.

Moose

Anonymous said...

Resistance is Patriotic

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

Moose, your outrage is noted, and dismissed. There is nothing righteous or Christian or legal or justified in putting your kids on a dangerous journey, separated from their parents, and expecting somebody else to look after them IF they survive the trip. Nor is it right to break into someone else's home, WITH your family, with the intent to live there without their permission. There is indeed a new policy under Trump; it is called "enforcing the law." And the law was indeed passed by a Democrat Congress (added to by the courts) and FLOUTED by Obama. Again, the new policy is called "enforcing the law as written." And if someone breaks the law in this country, they are going to be separated from your kids during your incarceration UNLESS you think the kids should be incarcerated with you.

This problem could be eliminated if Democrats would just let us build that wall.

Anonymous said...

And you persist with your lie in the face of the truth.

Asylum is a human right.

You are justifying child abuse.

Say hello to Hitler and Goebbels when you get to hell.

And remember...to receive Holy Communion in a state of serious sin, is sacrilege, and another very serious sin. You better be sure what you're advocating is moral, ethical, and just.

Moose

Anonymous said...

"This problem could be eliminated if Democrats would just let us build that wall."

...and holding children ransom for your wall is unconscionable.

Moose

Anonymous said...

John, for some reason, my Trump Policy link above is broken. Here's the link.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/how-you-can-fight-family-separation-at-the-border.html

jerry is lying. Not sure why you allow misinformation to persist on your blog.
There is no law that requires the separation of families at the border.

Moose

Anonymous said...

"There is nothing righteous or Christian or legal or justified in putting your kids on a dangerous journey..."

Oh, the irony. It hurts.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

There is no law saying people who violate the law get to take their children to prison with them. THAT would be child abuse. Where is your concern for these children??

FACT: about 85% of the kids now in "protective custody" arrived here WITHOUT parents. The "separating families" occurred far away from the border-- not our fault. Reserve your moral outrage for those committing the moral outrages, please, and for those who insist on KEEPING that sad state of affairs going for crass political purposes. "Ransom for the wall"? How about "trying to solve the problem in the most humane way possible"?

Asylum is a human right, but if it cannot be granted without trampling on the rights of others it is not a right at all. And something like 85% of asylum claims are bogus, according to the courts. Add to that the fact that asylum is ONLY binding on the nearest country and that is Mexico for the vast majority of current Central Americans, again not our problem. Not only that, legitimate (and illegitimate) asylum seekers can walk through the legal Ports of Entry and be taken seriously, and legally. Why break the law when you don't have to?

You are being insulting, it seems, just to be so.

Anonymous said...

I will not stand by and allow evil to have a say without being countered. Call it insulting if you wish.

Moose

John said...

Jerry,
The wall will not help... It is the same as:

2. Drive them back to the Mexican border and drop them off.
3. Setup refugee tent cities on the border and deposit people there until their court date

Moose,
Slate Link

How to Link

Now what exactly is Jerry lying about. As far as I understand, he is kind of correct, except that it is not a "Democrat Law". It is just the law... And no other President was politically stupid enough to enforce it.

Trump is playing hardball and parent(s) are trying to violate our border with kids in tow. Before they were given a court date and allowed to go on their way. And ~25% of them would be no shows at their hearing. Definitely not a way to control immigration.

John said...

Moose,
So what is your proposal to control access on our Southern border?

Or do you support no Southern border control and allowing anyone who gets to the border to enter our country?

Please think before you answer... There are ~7 BILLION people on earth and many of them are poor destitute and would love to live in the USA. How many do you want to let in? Remembering that we are already at record levels. And our poor have a hard time making a living wage here...

And just raising taxes and govt spending is not an adequate answer.

Instead of complaining and name calling...

Give us solutions.

Anonymous said...

“It is just the law...”

Incorrect. Try again.

Moose

John said...

Moose,
It is illegal to enter our country without permission.

People who violate our laws go to court.

Kids do not typically go to prison with their parent(s) while they await their trial. They go to social services or a relative.

So ultimately it is a question of "flight risk"... And unfortunately a large percentage of people in these circumstances do not show up for their day in court.

Therefore Trump and crew have chosen to hold them without bail...

All of this is just about how do we enforce our existing law and dissuade foreigners from breaking our law.

Have you got any answers to all of my questions?

jerrye92002 said...

And yet there is nothing untrue about the statement I made: "There is nothing righteous or Christian or legal or justified in putting your kids on a dangerous journey..."

So for you to call that ironic or, worse, to call me a liar and "evil" is a gross insult. I'll chalk it up to a temporary, uninformed hysteria for now.

jerrye92002 said...

John, I disagree about the wall. This whole problem comes from children crossing the border [illegally] with, but more often without, their parents. Put up a wall and they cannot cross the border. You don't need to catch and deport them, immediately or deferred, and you don't need to house them under any circumstance, pleasant or less so. Simple. And with the added benefit of stopping the drugs, traffickers and other criminals. News story the other night about a small town in Wisconsin that is swamped with Mexican drugs, many people dead, trafficking and hooked. A "crisis" in proportion to the size of the town.

Anonymous said...

I'm not answering any of your questions while you and jerry continue to lie about a law that:
a) was passed by a Republican Congress in 2002, and
b) does not mandate that children be separated from their families

This is on the current Fascist administration and on them alone. I will not negotiate with terrorists such as them or with people such as yourselves who support their terrorism.

Moose

Anonymous said...

"There is nothing righteous or Christian or legal or justified in putting your kids on a dangerous journey..."

You don't see the irony in that, without such an event, there would be no Christ, no Christianity. In other words, you would have been okay with Herod killing the infant Christ, because, too bad so sad, that was the law of the land.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

Moose, you have ZERO understanding of what I would or would not approve, and no right whatsoever to insult my [incorrectly] presumed lack of Christian faith.

jerrye92002 said...

You will be sad to hear that, today, President Trump has called upon Congress to pass a new law that will "permit us to detain and deport... families as a unit." Obviously the President is simply enforcing the law, as he was elected to do. Now let's see whether Democrats are willing to solve the problem or if they choose to pound on it as a campaign issue. I'm betting, based on long experience, it is the latter.

Anonymous said...

Oh...I'm sure you have Christian faith. You also have placed your faith in a man who is tearing apart families.

I'm calling you a hypocrite.

Moose

Anonymous said...

The Democrats introduced a bill on June 8 to keep families together.

Funny, Republicans want nothing to do with it.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

leave it to Democrats to introduce legislation to either make the problem worse or to obfuscate the reality so that they can continue their baseless political harangue.

Democrats are great at naming legislation that does exactly the opposite of what the name (and the accompanying hoopla) would imply.

if Republicans "want nothing to do with it" then it is likely they actually understand what is in it. It will be interesting to see if Trump's legislation to keep families together is given a fair shake by Democrats.

Anonymous said...

You shouldn't believe everything (anything) you hear on Fox News.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

"You also have placed your faith in a man who is tearing apart families."

You lie. I have not placed faith in a man. I have Helped elect a political leader that I believe has the right ideas and is being reasonably successful at implementing them. He is not tearing apart families; he is enforcing the law-- which is his job. And most of those families are torn apart before they even reach our border and your outrage on this issue is just more political grandstanding and Democrat Talking Points.

Anonymous said...

"He is not tearing apart families; he is enforcing the law..."

As has been previously pointed out, and which you refuse to acknowledge, the law does not mandate that children be taken from the parents.

So, he's apparently enforcing a law which does not exist. That's not how we do things in this country. You are supporting something fundamentally un-American.

I don't have talking points. I have a conscience and compassion, something the Republican party has lost completely.

Moose

John said...

Jerry,
Yes Trump is tearing apart families...

He is doing it for political reasons...

And the issue of this post is "kids taken from charged Parent(s)". Not kids showing up at the border by themselves...

Trump could have had the families detained together, however he wants political points and leverage... He simply does not care about the scars these children bear.

He made the choice to change the policy and now he owns the situation.

John said...

Jerry,
The wall will just shift the problem. The people will just pile up in refugee camps at the check points. And Trump was against that also...


Moose,
You still have not answered my questions from above.

jerrye92002 said...

You must be under 30. Compassion rules the head. Later on reality creeps in. You keep insisting the law does not require families be separated. that is only true if the law is not enforced, which is what Obama did, resulting in the current problem.

I won't call you a liar for what you say about the law; I will simply observe that both Democrats and Republicans (and the president) say they must CHANGE the law in order to keep families together. it is possible you are right and everybody else is wrong, but I'm not placing any wagers on that.

Anonymous said...

Then show us the law you think mandates the separation of families.

And Democrats are proposing a NEW law that forbids the separation of families, with some exceptions. That does not suggest that there is currently a law that mandates it.

John-

The government needs to stop tearing families apart. There is nothing else to answer at this point.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

The issue has been made "children separated from parents," that is true. But the problem is vastly overblown when you count the number of children who arrive WITHOUT parents, or brought in by human traffickers, or "children" sporting face tattoos and carrying drugs and guns.

To me the question increasingly becomes why Democrats are in such high dudgeon about this issue while refusing any reasonable attempt to actually solve it. it is estimated that illegal immigrants cost our economy annually roughly 6 times the inflated one time cost of the wall.

" The people will just pile up in refugee camps at the check points." Really? Which side of the border Will that be on? If it is on the Mexican side the flow will very quickly stop because nobody will make that journey just to sit in a refugee camp And the Mexican government will not want to support such a thing for very long. If it is on our side the conditions will be better, but it will require for a time a vast increase in resources to turn back the current flood after their phony asylum requests are denied. And if we get real immigration reform it will vastly slow down even that. The problem is not legal immigration (under the right circumstances) it is illegal immigration which, by law, should not exist.

jerrye92002 said...

Moose, I think you are missing the point. The law does not require tearing families apart. The law requires that illegal border-crossers be detained and prosecuted. Any minor children accompanying them may NOT be detained and prosecuted, so therefore must be separated from the criminal element (whether their parents or the human trafficker they came in with). And you continue to ignore the fact that most of these children are separated from their parents BY THEIR PARENTS before arriving here. That is not the fault of our law, or of the enforcement of same, or of the chief law enforcement officer of the US.

I continue to be amazed by the degree to which this so-called compassion for the children is being turned into a hyperbolic and hypocritical political Bludgeoning against our President, rather than seeking to solve the problem of illegal immigrant children in the first place.

Anonymous said...

"..it is estimated that illegal immigrants cost our economy annually roughly 6 times the inflated one time cost of the wall."

Citation please.

Moose

Anonymous said...

"The law requires that illegal border-crossers be detained and prosecuted."

Show me in the law where it says this.
I've looked at the law, and I've read commentaries on the law. It doesn't say what you think it says.

"I continue to be amazed by the degree to which this so-called compassion for the children is being turned into a hyperbolic and hypocritical political Bludgeoning against our President..."

Because his policy results in the psychological abuse of children. I guess wanting children to no be abused is "so-called compassion".

You will literally do and say anything to support your Dear Leader.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

"I've looked at the law, and I've read commentaries on the law. It doesn't say what you think it says."

If you have read the law, then it is the law, and enforcement of the law requires those who break it to be detained and prosecuted. How can a "law" do anything other than that? If you want me to believe that nonsense you are going to have to post a credible source.

And you could have left off that last sentence and had a better argument.

jerrye92002 said...

costs

Anonymous said...

How can we enforce aspects of a law that don't exist?

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

We can't. So a law that keeps illegally-entering families together cannot be enforced, at least until it is enacted. I am simply going to assume you are NOT claiming there is no law against crossing the border without permission?

By the way, Trump will sign an EO today to keep families together without simply resuming the "catch and release" of the previous administration. You watch: Democrats will promptly file suit challenging the EO. They claim he used his authority to create the problem, but will deny he has the authority to fix it.

John said...

Jerry,
Could you at least try to find a reputable unbiased source?

Center for Immigration Studies

Moose,
You still have not answered my questions from above.

I am fine setting up tent cities on the Mexican side of the border if that makes you feel better.

jerrye92002 said...

Could you at least cite a reputable source about sources? I'll say it again-- truth is where you find it, independent of any bias, real or imagined, of the source itself. If I find the same fact in normally left and normally right sources, regardless of the opinions drawn from it or the language framing it, I have a fact on which I can draw my own conclusions and opinions. For example, if 5/6 of the kids "separated from their parents" arrived here without said parents, found in two or more places, is therefore likely a true fact, then this flap is largely overblown for ignoring that reality, IMHO.

John said...

This is probably a more correct interpretation of that report. From a reputable conservative source.

NR NAS Study Summary

"If we then take the report’s estimates of the surplus and the fiscal burden at face value, it is self-evident that the impact of immigration on the aggregate wealth of natives is, at best, a wash. Instead, the impact of immigration is distributional. Those who compete with immigrants are effectively sending billions and billions of dollars annually to those who use immigrants.

There is a lot of temptation, particularly in the middle of a presidential campaign in which immigration is one of the core issues that completely differentiate the two candidates, to spin aspects of the NAS report in ways that will further a particular narrative. There are enough scenarios in the NAS report that would enable the construction of practically any factoid. As always, it is crucial to open that hood and look inside before you buy into it."

John said...

And here is a main stream view.

US News NAS Study

John said...

And again...

This is about Trump's policy change that took young children from their parents.

No one is complaining or focusing on the 5/6th right now. They will come and will need to be cared for no matter how we treat the 1/6th...

How many kids need to be forcefully separated from their Mom before you see this as a BAD IDEA??? Politically if not morally...

John said...

I wondered if Melania kicked him out her bed until he got his head out of his butt... :-)

Good thing he likes sex...

Anonymous said...

"You watch: Democrats will promptly file suit challenging the EO. They claim he used his authority to create the problem, but will deny he has the authority to fix it."

I suppose it would depend on what Trump's Final Solution is. If it's indefinite detention of families, which is the current rumor, every moral human being should be rightly outraged.

Moose

jerrye92002 said...

Not an overtly biased source, but I quibble with the conclusions. If the total effect on the economy is a "wash" where some win and some lose, then the net effect on AMERICANS is highly negative. Money that flows to illegals does not flow to Americans, and the benefits of lower corporate costs lower total economic activity. The argument being made here is the same as the argument for decriminalizing prostitution or drugs, that the crime rate will go down if we vacate the laws.

The argument here must be how to stop or seriously slow ALL illegal entry, juvenile or otherwise. Simply eliminating the penalty for illegality does not do that, regardless of how we might object to the perceptions being pushed of those penalties.

jerrye92002 said...

Moose, you want to object to the indefinite detention of families, and you object to the indefinite detention of minors, and you object to the indefinite detention of law-breaking border-jumpers. Please, pick a solution. Again, my prediction holds regardless of Trump's solution.

John said...

Jerry,
Bringing in low skilled immigrants, is like allowing free trade.

They both drive down costs and wages... That helps many Americans and hurts some.

Not sure regarding your seemingly flawed logic...

jerrye92002 said...

I think your logic holds if you are talking about LEGAL immigrants. Mine holds if there are illegals in the mix. We should be counting total economic activity among Americans. If some amount, especially if you include government payments, goes to non-Americans, then total US economic activity goes down.

John said...

I disagree, benefits are benefits. And the guy getting a new roof for 80% of normal cost because illegals work for less is the one getting the benefit.

Also, the illegals pay rent, buy food, buy gas, pay taxes, etc just like any other worker. And they can apply for fewer benefits in return.