A candidate who strives to undermine confidence in our election system?
Thankfully at least some GOP members are willing to defend the US system.
And the FBI is down playing any risk of fraud.
And remember that this is the same liar who claimed millions of people voted illegally in 2016 with ZERO proof.
If you support the USA, democracy, honesty, etc. Throw this lying bum out.
67 comments:
There's a fishy story going around today about discarded ballots in PA...all votes for Trump.
How convenient that there's suddenly "evidence" for Trump's claim.
And Karl Rove is a strategist on the campaign, so it's likely there are dirty tricks planned or already happening.
Moose
It is a strange story, I am interested to see if they can figure out what happened.
Yes
Unfortunately for our Country, nothing put out by anybody associated with this Administration can be trusted right now. And it's not because I hate Trump. It's because he has shown himself to be untrustworthy and surrounded himself with criminals.
Moose
Maybe not criminals. But certainly liars...
There are a lot of people in prison or indicted.
Moose
They definitely don't mind perjury.
You people...
1. You cannot find what you do not seek.
2. Therefore the burden is on you to PROVE that fraud/"improper voting" does NOT occur (and simple declarations do not suffice, e.g. "we didn't find any evidence"), because
3. There are many possible ways it CAN occur, and
4. You can't prevent fraud after the fraudulent votes are counted.
It is funny how you try to put the burden of proof on others for your conspiracy theories.
I guess that makes it easy to keep believing them.
You have the burden of proof because by claiming it does not happen, you are simultaneously claiming it CANNOT happen, and that is provably false. All that you can prove is that nobody has prevented these means of cheating before the fact, or that nobody has checked to ensure that these means of cheating were NOT used, after the fact. Only if you had such evidence could you prove your outlandish claims. Otherwise you're simply repeating talking points – nothing but hot air.
Usually people have to prove that a crime has been committed.
Not the other way around...
I have no doubt improper voting occures in every election. If perfection were required in order for elections to be valid, there have been no valid elections in history.
I am not sure what point Trump is trying to make. He doesn't like the system we have this year. Well, what is his alternative? Why wasn't his alternative put before the various authorities when this year's rules were decided? Now it may be he may not like the rules, but what of it. There are rules I don't like but I follow them. See electoral college. Nobody will ever aggrees with all the rules but still in an organized society we are still bound by them as Trump surely is.
--Hiram
What we have this year is a massive attempt by hyperpartisan Democrats like Secretary of State Simon, creating hew rules that ignore existing law, and creating other rules that advantage the cheaters. Trump objects, and "the authorities" simply laugh and go on with their cheating schemes. That is why I say that the most desirable outcome would be if all of these schemes were effectively thwarted, and proving that improper voting could NOT occur because of the rules in place, rather than KNOWING it will take place and caring nothing for "election integrity."
Unfortunately perfection is not a realistic goal when dealing with ~130,000,000 votes...
Thankfully the States are in charge of voting rules, regulations and over sight...
And not a lot of old White men who strives to disenfranchise millions of voters. :-)
Trump objects,
I object to lots of stuff too. But why should my objections matter any more than Trump's? The fact is, the rules are what they are, and until we change them we are stuck with them.
I do understand that some people want a different set of rules. It's a free country, and they are free to put together an alternative proposal and put it before the public. But the fact is, the election has already started, lawful votes have been cast, and they must be counted. For all sorts of technical reasons, among them the counting of votes by overseas military, it is too late to make chances. I just don't see any choice besides making the system we do have work.
--Hiram
Unfortunately "we" do not get to change the rules. That is Secretary of State Simon's way of advantaging his political party, and he cares not a whit for any pretext of fairness or integrity. As for ballots that have already gone out, one would hope that the numerous lawsuits underway would stop the obviously fraudulent ones from being counted, soon, so we do not have to void the entire election, as was done earlier this year (elsewhere) because of the massive fraud.
So, Jerry, I can just say that you ruthlessly murdered 17 people last year and now the burden of proving that false is on you? I mean, saying there's rampant voter fraud and everyone needs to prove you wrong is no different.
So what's the alternative. If we declare the election invalid, that means Nancy Pelosi becomes president. Is that an outcome anyone wants?
--Hiram
The balancing of 2 evils... (promoting voting / Stopping errors / fraud)
1. Place so many restrictions and checks in the process that MANY people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Jerry's position)
2. Maintain status quo reasonable restrictions and checks in the process so some people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Normal position)
3. Let anyone show up everyone who wants to will show up, however there may be significant errors / fraud? (No one's position)
Drewbie,
Seems a pretty good comparison...
Jerry and the "Block the Voters" tribe say:
- Errors / Fraud is significant
We say... Please show us this significant fraud.
- They say "we don't have any bodies, but trust us"
Now I have no doubt that there are errors and fraud in the system.
Managing and counting ~130,000,000 ballots in thousands of polling locations is bound to have a few glitches.
The question comes back to when is that noise significant?
Thankfully our system allows for parties / candidates to review the ballots, etc when the vote is close. And we have courts to help decide.
The problem is when the President starts to sew doubt before the election occurs.
He is such a self absorbed destructive man... Hopefully the DEM voters go to the polls in record numbers and get him tossed out.
Then the prosecutors can hopefully get hold of him and we will find out how criminal his past activities have been.
What can't be helped really is that we are losing confidence in the legitimacy of our system of government. That's been happening for a while now, and the speed of the decline is accelerating. It's a problem for which I have nothing approaching a solution.
In the near term, I do think the Supreme Court will lose it's political role. It's construction of statutes will become advisory only. It won't even take court packing for that to happen. In our system of government, that's the check when one of the branches loses it's balance.
--Hiram
Definitely doesn't help that the President is the one promoting the illegitimacy conspiracy theory.
What a loser...
You are all missing the point. It is easily proven that there are numerous OPPORTUNITIES for fraud, and that SOS Simon has added and is adding still more. What YOU need to prove is that no one ever avails their party of those opportunities. For example, if I allow Mickey Mouse to register to vote, and then do not require a voter ID that proves that the rascally rodent is the one showing up at the polls, whom have I "disenfranchised"? I am all in favor of suppressing the votes of dead people, fictional people, people who have already voted one or more times, and people who legally cannot vote. Can you honestly claim likewise? If so, the laws of Minnesota are against you.
Fraud/errors are problems...
Opportunities are not... :-)
Whaaa? Opportunities to create problems always result in problems being created. The way to avoid problems is to close out the opportunities for them to occur. Errors are problems. Creating opportunities for them is flat-out cheating.
Apparently you are one of those people who do not believe in taking reasonable risks and managing them... Remember...
The balancing of 2 evils... (promoting voting / Stopping errors / fraud)
1. Place so many restrictions and checks in the process that MANY people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Jerry's position)
2. Maintain status quo reasonable restrictions and checks in the process so some people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Normal position)
3. Let anyone show up everyone who wants to will show up, however there may be significant errors / fraud? (No one's position)
And apparently you are totally unqualified to make that distinction. If I place restrictions on voter impersonation, double voting, voting by fictional persons and dead people, how have I restricted the franchise? AND, I can easily do those things within the current system, except that our SOS does not WANT those things stopped. We just had a big scandal, where an Omar operative had 300 ballots in the back of his car and bragged on video how he got them. This is against MN law, which allows only 3 to be turned in by one person. BUT, just a couple weeks ago the court ruled against SOS Simon, who wanted to allow UNLIMITED ballot harvesting, and this guy would have been doing nothing illegal, and those votes would have counted! So, one opportunity to cheat closed. How about the next one, where 10s of 1000s of unverified voters vote?
Jerry,
You believe the strangest things...
Oh well I can't wait to see who wins...
And you will believe nothing except your own head-in-the-sand conceit, totally contrary to known fact. It is deniers like you that may mean we NEVER know the true results of this election.
You were happy to accept the result in 2016...
Now that Trump is likely to lose...
You are happy to support his effort to undermine a core corner stone of the USA...
I will never understand...
The reality is that Trump failed to reach out and build support among a broader constituency of Americans. Instead he called them names, insulted them, etc...
Therefore he lost voters like myself in large numbers. This should not be a surprise...
And last night put more nails in the coffin.
You don't understand this has nothing to do with Trump. He merely points out the problem of massive Democrat cheating underway, and I KNOW for fact it is true, in several ways. Any fool could know exactly the same if they would actually LOOK for the ways cheating can occur.
We can barely get 60% of our citizens to the polls...
And yet you fear that people are going to risk going to jail for a felony offense just to cast a few more votes.
The concept is so strange, I just can not understand it.
The balancing of 2 evils... (promoting voting / Stopping errors / fraud)
1. Place so many restrictions and checks in the process that MANY people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Jerry's position)
2. Maintain status quo reasonable restrictions and checks in the process so some people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Normal position)
3. Let anyone show up everyone who wants to will show up, however there may be significant errors / fraud? (No one's position)
Tee-hee. You keep pretending there is some huge legal consequence to voter fraud, and there is, but the chances of getting caught are essentially nil. "Improper voting," likewise is never caught because there are no mechanisms to detect it, assuming people like our hyper-partisan Secretary of State wanted to find it. Besides, thanks to, again, Democrats like our SOS, those ballots COUNT before the improper voting is detected. The only way to get to your imagined "there is no voter fraud" state is to prevent it from happening, and, unlike your fantasy world, you don't have to "suppress voting" to do it. ("false choice" IOW) 1. Voter ID. 2. provisional ballots for same day registrants. 3. No absentee voting for challenged voters. 4. Change the law allowing students to vote twice. 5. Clean up the voter rolls. 6. change the rule allowing illegal aliens to vote in MN. 7. Check same day registrants for double voting.
We will need to agree to disagree. As is often the case.
There is another alternative to "agree to disagree." You could actually LEARN something from somebody who disagrees with your rigid pre-conceived notions about something. I have provided you with facts from election law, election practice, legal proceedings, and countless studies. You simply deny that any of it offers an opportunity to sway an election. Right now, our SOS has sent an application for a ballot to every registered voter. In direct violation of MN law, a valid voter ID is NOT required to return it. At least 10% of those applications will go somewhere other than the real, intended voter because of errors in the voter rolls. Another 30% will go to people who do not vote and could easily fall into "the wrong hands." If these "applicants" receive a ballot, no witness signature will be required (SOS rule). So, you really think that the possibility of 40% of the votes being fraudulent does not sway an election, or at least throw it into question? How blind stubborn can you be?
Actually all you have ever done is point me to these MVA Conspiracy Theorists
And that is a good reason for your being so paranoid about MN election policies.
Again... You are proposing that citizens will seize other people's junk mail...
Illegally fill it out and send it in to get a ballot...
Then illegally fill in the ballot and send it in so they can vote twice or more?
And on top of this you think only DEM citizens would do this?
What are you smoking over there?
I point out that MVA frequently wins in court, so obviously these Democrat judges are in on the conspiracy to cast doubt on our election processes.
Do people cheat? I know they do; there is ample anecdotal (and court) evidence. The larger point is that the OPPORTUNITY exists, and secondarily that it is Democrats who are far more likely to consider that the end justifies any means. Those known opportunities must be eliminated or greatly reduced, or the integrity of elections will be lost, and that is bad.
"far more likely to consider that the end justifies any means."
Says the GOP guy who wants to throw up hurdles to make it hard for legal voters to vote...
Oh well...
This is a pretty interesting read
It seems your friends are costing us tax payers a lot of money...
Lie to yourself all you want. All I want is to keep dead people, people who are not who they say they are, people who already voted one or more times, people who aren't eligible to vote, and people who do not exist from voting. You, on the other hand, refuse to entertain even the simplest means to prevent these fraudulent votes. just like all the other Democrats.
All you want is to keep the poor minority and mobile student populations from voting.
Otherwise you certainly would not be against the SOS sending out Absentee Ballot applications and voting reminders...
I may follow this up with a future post... But here is the hypocritical thing...
I have now received two absentee ballot application forms from the GOP...
But apparently that is okay... Since I historically have voted Republican... And I am not young, poor or a minority...
Did you receive one from the SOS? The ones from the GOP are legit. The one from the SOS violates MN law. If you compare the two you may learn why.
Are you saying that only minorities are dead, or move, or are fictional, or ineligible, or vote twice? Sounds pretty racist to me. As for "mobile students," the SOS has interpreted MN law to ALLOW them to vote twice, and then never checks to see if they do. I may be a hypocrite according to you, but you seem willfully ignorant of the theft of an election going on right under your nose.
Look the same to me...
I'll let you worry about the crime that you and your friends can find no evidence of. :-)
Wrong. YOU can find no evidence of. But you are correct, the applications are identical, using the official SOS form. Problem is, it is contrary to MN law to accept an application without a valid MN DL or SSN. Therefore it is against the law to accept such without one or the other, unless the SOS chooses to ignore the law, which he is doing here and has done in numerous other ways. Since you cannot see this obvious and massive violation of the law, one can assume you are not looking for it and can blissfully go on living in this fantasy world of yours.
It is a much happier place than your conspiracy / fear filled world. :-)
Of course one can be happy living in a fantasy world where the truth, that there are people who would steal your vote from you, are lurking. To quote, "Friend, either you're closing your eyes To a situation you do not wish to acknowledge, Or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated By the presence of a [hyperpartisan Secretary of State] in your community."-- Prof. Harold Hill
It's not a conspiracy theory if people really ARE out to get you. And they are. Wouldn't you be happier knowing the truth? You don't have to be afraid, and you can be angry later.
Please feel free to be scared of ghosts that you can not prove exist.
You are hilarious! You have the proof right in your hand-- an absentee ballot application that does NOT require proof of ID! That violates MN election law! How many do you have?
"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" --Jeremiah 5:21
or the modern saying:
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
The absentee ballot request form has a signature space and a lot of warnings...
Not sure what scares you about it.
Do you guys have pictures of these things, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
I've already voted, and it took all of one day from the time I put it in the mail to when it was officially accepted.
Moose
I'll take a photo a photo and put it in a new post.
I think he is having a problem that apparently the SOS has agreed to send out ballots to non-registered voters.
Then when they get the ballot they will get the registration paperwork also.
Well...we have same day registration, so what's the problem, exactly?
Moose
I am sure he dislikes that also...
I do dislike same-day, because we do not have provisional ballots. Somebody can same-day register, their ballot is counted, and only THEN to we validate their eligibility. In a past election, at least 26,000 of them could not be validated after the election. There were undoubtedly many more because we lack the mechanism to verify them.
And my problem with the SOS is he has sent ballots to ALL registered voters, and we know for fact that about 10% of those are errors.
Jerry,
Source for this silliness that ballots were sent to all registered voters?
From what I can tell. HE DID NOT.
He sent absentee voting request forms to all registered voters.
I sure have not received a ballot... Have you?
What you are missing is that all of those "registered voters" do not exist at the address in the rolls. About 10% have died, moved, never existed, or are ineligible. AND about 30% of those people do not vote in any given election. Anybody that gets their hands on one of those 40% "excess" applications can submit it, without a proper ID (contrary to State law, but nobody is allowed to check), AND receive a ballot they can vote and return WITHOUT a witness signature as required by law and overridden by SOS decree. Now, if you cannot find in all that the opportunity for cheating, maybe you should just let me vote for you.
So "Bob" an unregistered voter gets a form to apply for an absentee ballot from the SOS, the GOP and the DEMs...
You are thinking he will feel inclined to do what exactly?
Toss at least two of them in the trash, where they will be picked up by "Vinnie," a Dem operative who gets $10 for each one. If he is a Democrat, he will fill out the other one with a phony name and vote with it. (Remember, nothing prevents it.) If he is a Republican, he will also discard that one and go vote in person.
So now people are dumpster diving to get absentee ballot applications...
Oh my you have lost your mind... :-)
Not necessarily. We already have documented cases of mailbox theft, or ballot harvesting from those not using their ballots, or of postal workers collecting large numbers of them. You continue to deny the POSSIBILITY that any of these errant ballots may be counted, and you cannot reasonably DO that. Since you (and our borderline criminal Secretary of State) simply refuse to even comply with election law, let alone take steps to prevent these fraudulent practices, I can only assume you WANT to prevent a free and fair election.
As I assume...
1. Place so many restrictions and checks in the process that MANY people choose not to or are not allowed to vote, and negligible errors / fraud occur. (Jerry's position)
What happens when you assume? How have I "suppressed votes" if I simply require that dead people be purged from the rolls, that "challenged" voters must clear the challenge before voting, and that we not count the votes of same day registrants until their identity is verified? Again, you are presenting a false choice. Until you can prove that all the opportunities fro improper voting are closed off, you cannot prove those opportunities have not been taken. IOW, why should we not insist that State election law be followed?
Every time you place more hurdles and rigidity in the process, you are suppressing votes.
You may stop one fraudulent vote, but you may suppress 1,000 legal votes. And that is a trade off you and the MVA are okay with as long as it is the poor black and brown folks who's votes are suppressed.
It is one of the sadder realities regarding the GOP party.
As I have asked you before... If the goal is to maximize the number of legal voters who vote... How would you and the MVA support and promote safe legal voting?
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