I decided to see if the Board had named who they hired a detective to investigate... No luck there, but they do have a meeting Tuesday evening with some interesting things on the docket.
From my reading of the proposals, it looks like they are going implement some kind of "variable punishment policy". I assume to align with this deal. Thoughts?
2018/19 Handbook
Proposed Student Discipline Policy Change
"DISTRICTWIDE RESPONSIBILITIES
- Every school shall establish a Schoolwide and Classroom Behavior Plan identifying and teaching behavior expectations and identified responses within the requirements of this policy and directives from the Superintendent.
- Every classroom will establish and teach behavior expectations within the district’s policy, the Superintendent’s directives and the school’s behavior plan with participation from the students in the classroom.
- Every school employee will demonstrate high standards of behavior, modeling appropriate actions and response to student behaviors.
- Every school will examine its discipline data to ensure that responses to student behavior do not show evidence of bias or discriminatory behavior. Statistical data alone will not establish bias or discrimination. Schools shall also use behavior data to identify and provide additional training to staff and students; and to provide effective interventions for students to improve student outcomes.
- Individual needs shall be considered in determining the appropriate response to behavior that does not meet school standards.
109 comments:
Wouldn't it be nice if someday all of this would be written in English, rather than incomprehensible ed-speak?
It seems pretty clearly written to me.
They are doing what you recommend.
Meet the kids where they are.
If the child has a rough life, lessen or change the consequences when they do something wrong.
If the child has a good life, apply the full normal consequences when they do something wrong.
This should help them show "equal outcomes" when next audited.
If this is what they end up doing, I find that very troubling. But if RDale’s goal is to have equal outcomes no matter what the cost to learning or enrollment, I suppose this would work.
Molly
I am with Molly on this one. It sounds good, but I see a lot of weasel words in there that could support doing almost anything. It sounds as if consequences are going to be individually tailored, without regard to statistics, and that is all to the good. But what those consequences might include, how flexible they will be, and how effective they are at creating a standard of behavior, that will be the test.
Well we can review it sentence by sentence...
"Every school will examine its discipline data to ensure that responses to student behavior do not show evidence of bias or discriminatory behavior.
Statistical data alone will not establish bias or discrimination.
Schools shall also use behavior data to identify and provide additional training to staff and students; and to provide effective interventions for students to improve student outcomes.
Individual needs shall be considered in determining the appropriate response to behavior that does not meet school standards."
Then we take this into consideration
It would be helpful to see an example of a classroom behavioral plan from other schools to get an idea of what to expect.From the wording it’s hard to get a picture of what the specifics might be.
Molly
More Info for your perusal
And more detail
And I am not sure how to read this... But it looks like they want AHS to reduce suspensions from 17 per year down to 3 per year...
PACER PBIS
Delano Kindergarten Plan
Behvior Plans
BM to PBIS
Delano 3rd Grade
Try 2 Delano Kindergarten
Classroom Mgmt Plan
Smart Classroom Mgmt
It seems the goal is to make the Teachers restate in every class what should be standard expectations...
The biggest problem I have heard of with PBIS in RDale is that really troubled kids have been kept in the classroom far to long until the Teachers can create enough paperwork to justify a move. Meaning that the other ~28 kids have to be distracted for that month or more... Besides the Teacher being frazzled.
Looking at some of the reports provided-- they go to Minnesota Human Rights Commission, which tells me something.
Apparently you did not keep up with the links...
MinnPost Ten school districts, charters enter into agreements with Minnesota Department of Human Rights over discipline disparities
MinnPost Minnesota Department of Human Rights warns 43 school districts and charters over discipline disparities
Yeah this has little to do with the MN Dept of Education...
Just more unfunded mandates... This document says it all...
Page 1...
RDale was suspending special education kids at a higher rate than non-special ed.
RDale was suspending African American, Asian American, Native American and students of color at a higher rate than Caucasian students...
And this is apparently proof of systemic bias... And BAD...
I mean why would groups of children who are more prone to poverty, homelessness, emotional trauma, emotional out bursts, etc be suspended more often than groups of children who are more likely to be raised in stable homes????
It must be racism... :-) It is amazing how the equal outcomes see things...
It is like saying that the school is responsible for bias because an English Language Learner struggles in school. Even though their whole family and community speaks their native language at home.
it says so right there:
"The department and district have a strong commitment to:
-- work together on behalf of all Minnesota students to ensure their success, and
–- collaborate and use their best efforts to improve student academic achievement by reducing the disparate suspension and expulsion outcomes for students of color…"
so, by letting students of color run wild, we "improve student academic achievement"???!
Wasn't there an old saying about...
"spare the rod and spoil the child"... :-)
On the other hand this seems somewhat aligned with your views that home life and community should not matter... Schools need to find away to teach these kids...
And sending them home to the dysfunctional parent(s) who helped make them this way certainly is not helping the child.
Expulsion and suspension only work if the parent(s) care and want to help the child improve. And usually with good engaged parent(s) it never goes this far.
So if we as a society were to say... No more expulsions or out of school suspensions... What would be the solution???
And remember, this is NOT the good old days.
Why is it so surprising that students of color may not be getting an entirely fair shake when it comes to school discipline? We see it the criminal justice system, we see it in employment, we see it housing ... why wouldn't it also be true in schools?
It may or may not be...
However the idea that multiple groups of students raised in multiple ways should experience the same out comes also seems like an odd result.
Or do you think the outcomes for children raised in a loving stable 2 parent educated household who attend 2 or 3 years of pre-school should be the same...
As those for children raised by one barely educated struggling parent in near homelessness?
Here are some reminders:
Poverty and the Developing Brain
"While poverty did not impact brain development in its entirety, it did affect some brain regions more than others. Differences in brain structure were particularly present in areas involved in memory, language processing, and decision-making and self-control."
A friend of mine works in the Bloomington school district and we were talking about this subject tonight. Her school district is facing the same situation. She mentioned that kids raised in poverty can have developmental delays in the brain that causes poor impulse control along with many other behavior related issues.
So it’s possible that suspension and expulsion rates may be more about socioeconomic issues rather than race. Maybe somebody already alluded to this.
Thoughts?
Molly
Stress and Brain Development
"When the threat is ongoing — a result of things like war, famine, poverty, natural disasters, family discord or neighborhood violence — the stress system may remain on high alert, sometimes triggering anxiety, behavior problems, stomach aches, sleep problems and other mental and physical symptoms.
Experts believe that contact with a loving, nurturing parent or caregiver can help children weather stress and reduce chances for lasting ill effects. A recent U.S. study of toddlers from families living in poverty is an example. Youngsters who had a strong parent relationship had lower stress-hormone levels when they arrived at a clinic to get vaccinations than those without that parent buffer."
Molly,
I think the challenges are correlated with poverty and race, but not truly caused by them.
I know relatively low income loving couples and individuals who have great academically successful kids...
It is these Adverse Childhood Experiences, lack of adequate stimulation, parent(s) who can barely care for or love themselves, etc that are the problem in my opinion.
That is why just giving people more welfare does not fix the problem. :-(
And what is worse for the kids and schools, a lot of the damage is done to brain development before Kindergarten. And a lot of bad belief/ attitude / behavioral habits can be firmly set by then also.
That as why I am such a big fan of stopping unplanned pregnancies, Training Great Parent(s), ECFE and pre-school...
I’ll have to take a look at that article “Stress and brain development” and the other articles but it’s nice to end the evening thinking there is hope for children in poverty when a caring parent is present.
Molly
Unfortunately one of our common phrases here is...
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
In this case to me it means the parent(s) have to be caring, capable and willing to work at it...
Pleasant dreams... :-)
"It may or may not be..."
There's literally dozens of studies that show that black students are more likely to be suspended than white students for the same offense. (Even Trump's Department of Education found that, notably last year in Milwaukee) You can hold your head in the sand and talk around it all you want, and I know you will, because you deny racism in all its forms because it allows you to blame black people for their lack of virtue. You traffic in thinly-veiled racist tropes all the time. Heck, one of your posts on this Robbinsdale subject was basically "The black superintendent hired all his black friends from black school districts instead of some nice white people".
Yes we have discussed different punishment based on different support systems before. If concerned engaged contrite communicative parent(s) with resources show up and work with the Principal, Judge, etc, those in power have more options. It is unfortunate that all children do not have that normal support system.
I am curious, which post did I raise concerns regarding the race of the Supt's picks?
I am much more concerned about their views, loyalties and cost than their race.
We complain about the self dealing on corporate boards, this is really no different.
I am not sure the data varies much from what we are reading in MN, unless you have a better source.
I'll need to read the source report in more detail when I get some time.
Just some food for thought
For cripes sake, I cite a specific example - Milwaukee last year.
"A federal investigation into alleged racial disparities in the way Milwaukee Public Schools disciplines students uncovered more than 100 instances over a two-year period in which black students were punished more severely than their white peers for the same or similar misconduct, according to a report by the U.S. Department of Education."
JS: Federal investigation found 100-plus examples of racial disparities in MPS suspensions
And your "fact based analysis" returned a general GAO study and a 23-year old paper about youth gangs.
"I am curious, which post did I raise concerns regarding the race of the Supt's picks?"
Do you read your own blog? You reposted somebody's thoughts along those lines and said they were "interesting".
"We complain about the self dealing on corporate boards, this is really no different."
Who is this "we" exactly? Whenever I bring up corporate governance, you defend the way things are today.
I'm not chasing you down this rabbit hole for the umpteenth time because I can present a bazillion links and it won't do any good anyway. I just wanted to point out that you've yet again got your head in the sand on this.
"There's literally dozens of studies that show that black students are more likely to be suspended than white students for the same offense." Just curious, beyond John's explanation of "support system" or "engaged parents" which might be a contributing cause, do you honestly believe that racism plays a part? Could it be that the "same offense" has varying degrees, and that students of color might be more egregious in their behavior (especially towards a white teacher)? Is there any reason to believe that subjecting teachers and administrators to "cultural sensitivity training" or getting them to "admit their white privilege" is going to change student behavior one iota?
"Just curious, beyond John's explanation of "support system" or "engaged parents" which might be a contributing cause, do you honestly believe that racism plays a part?"
Yes, it's clearly a factor. A similar investigation took place in the Durham, N.C. schools, and they found that black students were over-disciplined for offenses that were more subjective offenses requiring judgment calls by school administrators (such as "noncompliance with school rules" or "disruption") while discipline rates for more objective offenses (such as "smoking on school property") were less out of whack.
Sean,
That was an interesting link and it brought me here...
Oakland United Restorative Justice
Now I have no doubt that some kids get different punishments... I am just not convinced that race is the causal factor.
As noted above... Poverty, stress and perceived victimhood lead to a lot of attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, limitations, etc that can impact discipline rate and severity...
When my cute little blond daughter gets pulled over for speeding, she appears very sorry and promises to not do it again... And the officer let's her off with a warning.
Where as the young Black man who "knows the stop was race related" gives the officer a lot of attitude and gets a ticket...
Is that racism or just human interactions... "Catch more bees with honey"
"When my cute little blond daughter gets pulled over for speeding, she appears very sorry and promises to not do it again... And the officer let's her off with a warning.
Where as the young Black man who "knows the stop was race related" gives the officer a lot of attitude and gets a ticket..."
This is you projecting.
Sean, a difference in "subjective" offenses? Isn't that saying that, within any given offense there is a wide range of severity? As John's example, contrition and cooperation is a lesser "subjective offense" than cursing and confrontation.
For myself, I find that the more black people I encounter, the wider range of behaviors I see, and my natural suspicion/distrust/self-defense mechanisms lessen (my second close encounter with a black man I was shot at, so...)
"As John's example, contrition and cooperation is a lesser "subjective offense" than cursing and confrontation."
The assumption here, then, is that blacks folks are more prone to "cursing and confrontation". What is that based on?
Sean,
I does not even need to be "cursing and confrontation". From above...
"When the threat is ongoing — a result of things like war, famine, poverty, natural disasters, family discord or neighborhood violence — the stress system may remain on high alert, sometimes triggering anxiety, behavior problems, stomach aches, sleep problems and other mental and physical symptoms."
Now imagine you live in this world and people like yourself continually preach that the authorities are out to get you because of your skin color...
Then when they are questioned regarding their behavior, action, etc... Do you not believe they would be more prone react differently?
G2A Conflict and Collusion
G2A CC Break the Cycle
G2A Conflict with Heart
These come from the books by Arbinger. Ironically during the last couple of weeks have been checking them out from my personal library at work. They are GREAT.
Without evidence, this is merely projection.
It's also rather telling that the cause of this issue isn't in fact any actual racism, but merely the fact that people are being told there is racism. Give me a break. Perhaps you should re-read that piece on white fragility you posted a few days back, because it fits you perfectly.
Sean, You certainly do like to accuse others...
Did you ever listen to Molly's source?
Thomas Sowell Discrimination and Disparities
Seeing "Hoover Institute" involved makes me wonder about this guy, but he does have quite a history.
Is that Black man suffering from White fragility also? :-)
I listened to part of it. I don't find it responsive to the topic at hand. We have actual data that shows black people and white people being treated differently for the same offenses, and your totally not-at-all-racist response is essentially "well, those blacks must be gettin' uppity".
Believe what you will, but aren't you one of those folks who moved away from these challenges than working to fix them?
NR Whats Wrong
CK White Fragility
Guardian WF
"But, of course, DiAngelo’s words provoke. They cause discomfort and defensiveness. She picks at the disbelief and sensitivity white people exhibit when they are told they are complicit in society’s institutional racism. She challenges rather than gives solutions. Her book is a harsh wake-up call for white liberals, who she thinks could be much more progressive if they first listened.
DiAngelo says she encounters a lot of “certitude from white people – they insist ‘Well, it’s not me’, or say ‘I’m doing my best, what do you want from me?’ ”. She defines this as white fragility – the inability of white people to tolerate racial stress. This, she says, leads to white people “weaponising [their] hurt feelings” and being indignant and defensive when confronted with racial inequality and injustice. This creates a climate where the suggestion or accusation of racism causes more outrage among white people than the racism itself. “And if nobody is racist,” she asks, “why is racism still America’s biggest problem? What are white people afraid they will lose by listening? What is so threatening about humility on this topic?”
DiAngelo’s book is a radical statement at a time when the debate is so polarised. It seems we are forever talking about race. Or talking about why we can’t talk about race. So the problem isn’t a lack of conversation about racism but the different levels of understanding about what it is."
She definitely has viewpoints...
"Very few white people, she says, will think they need to read this book. “I know my people really well, and we will do whatever we can to mark ourselves as ‘not racist’.” In her opinion, schools and the media are “the belly of the beast”. “Schools are fantastically efficient sorting mechanisms,” she says. “They sort children into unequal places in life. We all know it, otherwise we would not care which schools our children went to.” The media, meanwhile, “continually pumps out images of white supremacy and superiority”."
"Believe what you will, but aren't you one of those folks who moved away from these challenges than working to fix them?"
I didn't move away from them. And I'm fighting like hell right now to fix those issues in our own school district, because we have a lot of problems right now.
So we have a Black man who claims welfare and the war on poverty destroyed his people...
And a white woman who swears white people destroyed Black people...
Who should we believe?
"Who should we believe?"
Both and neither. Welfare and the war on poverty haven't worked perfectly. And racism still exists and has real impacts on life today. Both can be true at the same time. When we see incredible disparities like the school suspension numbers, and everything else we know about how racial discrimination has reared its head throughout the years, ruling out racism as one of the factors -- as you have been doing -- is absurd.
Where have I EVER Ruled out Racism?
Remember my questions...
"How does one determine if an action is racist or simply demanding a high common standard of behavioral excellence from all students and parents?"
•Am I mildly racist for expecting excellence from all parent(s) no matter their race?
•Are you mildly racist for expecting less from the parent(s) who are racial minorities?
I am pretty sure the kids want parental excellence no matter who their parent(s) are.." G2A
From my perspective I see racism as one of many factors...
Where as to me it seems that Liberals see it as THE factor... :-)
I LOVE these Thomas Sowell Quotes!!!
This one seems appropriate to this discussion...
The word "racism" is like ketchup. It can be put on anything - and demanding evidence makes you a 'racist'
"It can be put on anything - and demanding evidence makes you a 'racist'"
Funny thing is you're not "demanding evidence", you're explaining away the evidence of racism and making your own evidence-free claims, like suggesting that the real problem is people like me talking about racism.
I have been reading a whole lot of evidence on both sides.
And I find it very gray, fuzzy and non-conclusive. To me there are a LOT of causal factors, one being racism
Where as the Left seems to find it very Black and White...
"Outcomes are not the same, so that is proof positive that the bad Caucasian folks must be holding everyone else down..."
Sorry, I can not make that leap of logic.
What I do know from past experience...
If RDale does not keep those hallways and classrooms under tight control, more people who can afford to leave will leave... Which means less funding, fewer volunteers, donations, stable children / families, more disruption, etc...
And then the cycle feeds on it's self until the whole district looks like the East side of RDale… Which is really bad for the unlucky kids from all races.
Here are the Demographics for 2 of those schools.
RMS
English learner 122 14.2%
Special education 147 17.1%
Free/Reduced-Price meals 584 67.8%
Homeless 19 2.2%
Northport Elementary
English learner 198 32.7%
Special education 57 9.4%
Free/Reduced-Price meals 448 73.9%
Homeless 17 2.8%
I just surveyed my family (husband, who was a teacher for 30 years, and my mother.)
The question was: do minority students get suspended more due to misbehaving more or due to racism or do to a combination of both. All three of us agreed that it was a combination of both. My husband tried to assign percentages but I did not break it down.
Mostly, I don't care to participate in this conversation as John does not see/understand his own racism.
Laurie,
Oh don't be so sensitive, that is apparently a sign of white fragility...
How do you define "racism"?
racism is kind of like pornography- I know it when I see it. From my perspective we are all racist to varying degrees, some people are just more able / willing to acknowledge it. One reason I don't like discussing racism is I am far from expert in understanding and describing/explaining it.
This is an interesting interview with Robin DiAngelo
You mean whiteness both in terms of skin color and in terms of whatever habits or ethnicities white society values?
Skin color’s really interesting because I was just going to move to that. Even within a group of what we call black, there is colorism. Anti-blackness goes across that entire spectrum. Within all groups of color, the closer you are to white, the more benefit and the closer you are to black, the least benefit, right? I think that white-adjacent groups have to ask themselves a really hard question, which is “Who have I aligned with? Have I aligned with whiteness, or have I taken up and aligned with black people in this struggle against racism?” Most of those white-adjacent groups have not challenged anti-blackness within their own communities.
Does this mean that she sees many Black people as "Uncle Toms"?
Uncle Tom
1 disparaging : a black person who is overeager to win the approval of whites (as by obsequious behavior or uncritical acceptance of white values and goals)
2 disparaging : a person who is overly subservient to or cooperative with authority
Laurie,
I would encourage you to keep talking and learning.
Putting up walls because you are uncomfortable and not an expert will just leave you uncomfortable.
Besides every so often you can just call me names like Sean and Moose... :-)
Now as for that definition...
How do you tell the difference between "racism" and "ghettoism", "low classism", etc?
Remember Hillary calling a bunch of Americans "irredeemable" and 'deplorable"...
If I show up in my stained torn weekend work clothes after not taking a shower... And someone has a preconceived notion is that okay? I mean it isn't racism or is it? (I often laugh that my family makes me change before running to Target) :-)
Now I am prejudiced against people who look like trailer trash meth heads... Is this racism or just good judgment?
Should we them forbid Urban Liberals from thinking of Rural Conservatives as bumpkins, ignorant, xenophobes, misogynists, etc?
This whole topic fascinates me...
Our whole culture is based on money, looks, knowledge, being well spoken, etc and then some folks obsess about race for some reason.
I wonder if in all of human history there has ever been a society that welcomed people who look, speak, dress and think differently with open arms as much as we do in America.
The every body shall be successful and loved goal is a worthy one.
Not sure how humans get there...
Just a note, even in Norway their migrants have to conform to language and other requirements. Where as in the USA people can do as they choose.
none of your examples are racism. Maybe you should get a book about it to understand it better.
I did a 30 second search on Amazon for you and turned up the book already mentioned- White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism.
It is available at my local library so I am going to put skimming it on my summer reading list.
So treating someone like me or my rural red neck friends differently because of how we dress, speak or act is okay?
Yet if that person is not white... Then it terrible?
Liberals confuse me...
maybe Sean will answer your questions. I don´t have the interest or the energy, at least not tonight. You do seem very confused about the concept of racism.
I must say that Robin's comments did muddy the water...
"Even within a group of what we call black, there is colorism. Anti-blackness goes across that entire spectrum. Within all groups of color, the closer you are to white, the more benefit and the closer you are to black, the least benefit, right?"
To her white liberal sensitivities racism is about more than just race...
I am happy I did not attend the board meeting, they pretty much blew through the policy and said they would discuss it at the work meeting...
¨blackish¨ did a show on the different shades of color within their fictional family. It didn´t make much of an impression on me except that their shades of blackness was a bit of an issue within the family.
VOX Student Protest
This piece is pretty good :-)
The Frank Kool piece is good.
It supports a lot of the pieces that I have read regarding racism.
I usually stick with reading conservative black authors because I get enough information on progressive black opinions from the news. Jason Riley is one that I like, he wrote “Please Stop Helping Us”.
In my opinion when thinking about how things were back when I was in high school until now, there has been great improvement in making the country less racist. But today when you listen to the news it sounds like people of colors lives are just horrible. I find myself thinking about race with every interaction and worrying about whether I might be saying the wrong thing. I hate hearing that the achievement gap for blacks is getting worse in Minnesota but I feel like the things we put in place to improve it my be part of the problem. Like John, I’m just trying to become more informed on racism. I apologize for rambling.
Molly
Hi Molly,
If you are interested, here is how you can leave HTML links like I do. Or if you just paste in an address, I can add the link.
Here are some related reviews of books by Black men...
More Harm Than Good Review
Stop and Shame Reviews
"To me there are a LOT of causal factors, one being racism"
Then why do you knock it down every time someone brings it up? When I posted studies showing that blacks get worse punishments than whites for the same offense, your literal response was to blame white liberals for telling black people about racism, because that would make them more prone to lip off. I looked back through all of you recent Robbinsdale posts -- *not once* did you suggest that there might be some actual bias going on in addition to the other issues.
I was a lot like you until a decade or so ago. I thought it was all about behavior and parenting and the sorts of things you obsess about. I thought, we've come so far in the last 30-40-50 years, it can't be that bad now, right?
Then, I stopped talking and started listening. I listened to my now former colleague who traded in his BMW to get a Nissan because he was tired of being pulled over multiple times a month. He told me the story of how he was pulled over for doing 33 in a 30 then forced to wait for an hour while they called a canine unit to search his car for drugs (which weren't there). I listed to my neighbor -- a Senior VP for a Fortune 500 company -- tell me about how he still gets treated differently in stores and restaurants today. I listened to the older sister of one of my daughter's classmates who was told she couldn't do a high school history presentation about Emmett Till because it would be "too controversial". Just a few days ago, a parent at one of my kid's schools told me they had the same exact experience that the character Randall in a recent "This is Us" episode had where he was forced to pre-pay at a nice restaurant.
Yes, things have changed and gotten better. But there's still a long, long ways to go. The way I experience the world is completely different than the way they do.
Thanks Sean for sharing the racist experiences your friends have had. Those things obviously are just so wrong. I definitely know we still have tons of work to do on it. I still struggle with people using the label of racism as a weapon. And this term White Fragility just seems like another way of blaming people. Maybe I’m just too old to learn new tricks, but I’ll still try and work on it.
Molly
Sean,
Please remember that from my perspective there are many factors that cause people to be treated differently within our society.
And that Liberals like yourself are simply a one trick pony... It seems that you claim racism as the source of almost all our society's ills.
So yes my comments have been about explaining how this topic goes far beyond racism. Some of the problems created by the people who struggle, some created by biased people, some created by our country's systems / laws.
Racism:
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
- a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
- a theory of races hierarchy which argues that the superior race should be preserved and should dominate the others. Racism can also be an unfair attitude towards another ethnic group. Finally racism can also be defined as a violent hostility against a social group.
Not sure why the Emmett Till piece was inappropriate. Maybe a bit violent and dark?
As for the other stories... Who should be angry at?
The police and business owners who get anxious when they encounter situations that trigger their experience based alarms?
The idiots within the community who continue to reinforce those alarms? (ie gang members, dine and dashers, shop lifters, etc?
Do you get just as upset when "trailer trash" white people in old cars receive the same responses from police and business owners?
"And that Liberals like yourself are simply a one trick pony... It seems that you claim racism as the source of almost all our society's ills."
When you say nonsense like this, it just goes to prove my point even more. Have a great day!
Well...
Are you willing to entertain any of the MANY causes I have raised for why people are treated differently within our society?
Even Jessie Jackson understood the complexity of the issues.
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
Or maybe you seem him as a racist?
"Are you willing to entertain any of the MANY causes I have raised for why people are treated differently within our society?"
The fact that you don't know the answer to that question indicates that you don't really read what I wrote, you only pick the pieces of it that you recognize as fitting into your little box and react to it with your rote, tired talking points.
Oh, for cripes sake, the 26-year-old Jesse Jackson quote again? Man, there's nothing that gets you more excited than a black guy saying something bad about other black people. I wonder why that is.
So you are okay with the idea:
- that certain people may get harsher sentences because they do not have good support systems?
- that people with old cars may get pulled over more often because it is an old car?
- kids from poor low education families may get in trouble more often
- people with few good options may commit more crime
And like Jesse's quote because it simply is logical. If much of the crime in an area is committed by a person wearing a brown hat. It only makes sense that people be aware and ready when a person with a brown hat approaches them...
It has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with experiences and learning.
"So you are okay with the idea:
- that certain people may get harsher sentences because they do not have good support systems?"
Nope. The sentence you get should be based on the crime.
As for the rest of your examples, sure, that's OK, but that's only part of story. Yes, it's generally true that a person in an old car is more likely to be pulled over than a person in a new car. But you ignore that a black person in an old car is more likely to get pulled over than a white person in an old car. It's not color-blind.
"If much of the crime in an area is committed by a person wearing a brown hat. It only makes sense that people be aware and ready when a person with a brown hat approaches them..."
What this also ignores is that judging crime on statistics also depends on how it's policed. We know, for instance, that drug usage rates among whites and blacks are similar, yet far more black people get arrested for drug possession than white people. Why is that? It's because of how we police drugs in this country. Cops aren't hassling teenagers in Wayzata they way they are in North Minneapolis.
"It has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with experiences and learning."
It's got a lot to do with stereotypes. How many times have people brought up the stereotype that black folks are "lazy" or some variant of it? Even you have suggested at different points that poor people just need to work harder. Yet, what segment of the population has the highest share of people with 2 or more jobs? Black men.
You think this stereotyping doesn't reach down to schools? Think again.
1. And yet the RDale efforts to make racial outcomes equal will be to change the punishment based on the situation of the perpetrator.
It is interesting that you want "mandatory sentencing", rather than allowing the judge to determine what is appropriate given all of the factors at play.
2. Why would a police officer pull over the Black person more often? Assuming it is a nice level headed officer who is trying to keep his community safe...
3. Have you heard of their being a gang problem in Wayzata? Due they have gun shot detection monitoring devices?
Or all these Red and Blue Dots
Or do you think the Urban Twin Cities are spending all this money just to harass the harmless teens?
4. Yes it is pre-judging of people based on what one believes about that look, action, situation, etc. And for better or worse it is what we rely on to keep our communities safe. Remember the definition of discriminate...
- to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of
- to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences
- to recognize or identify as separate and distinct
And for better or worse the officers and school personnel are always looking for something that seems a bit off. I suppose the opportunity is that they can just stop checking when things seem a bit off...
I'll try to browse this report later. Thanks for the link.
"It is interesting that you want "mandatory sentencing", rather than allowing the judge to determine what is appropriate given all of the factors at play."
No, that's not what I want. What I don't want is for kids to get leniency based on their race. And, honestly, I would argue you've got it backwards. If anything, a kid who comes from a good support system and still screws up should be punished more harshly than a kid from a troubled background. All the Appelen model does is take a kid who's struggling to stay afloat and tie another a brick to their leg.
"Why would a police officer pull over the Black person more often?"
That's a great question. Yet, we know from data all across the criminal justice system that it happens. We know, controlling for type of offense and previous criminal record, that blacks get stopped more. They get sentenced longer. They're more likely to be charged with and sentenced to the death penalty. We know this happens, it's not a matter of "if" -- it's a matter of "how much".
"Have you heard of their being a gang problem in Wayzata?"
Is drug possession not a crime in Wayzata? Why should a drug-using teenager in Wayzata be more likely to get off the hook?
"Yes it is pre-judging of people based on what one believes about that look, action, situation, etc. And for better or worse it is what we rely on to keep our communities safe."
Is this keeping our communities safe? I'm not sure that it is. We've determined that black 5-year olds are lazy, violent, and stupid? And that's not at all racist?
Young black children aged 0-8 years were almost three times more likely to be rated as being lazy than white adults, with Native American and Hispanic/Latinx young children also more likely to be considered lazy than white adults. Young black children were more than twice as likely to be rated as unintelligent or violence-prone compared with white children of the same age, with young Hispanic/Latinx children also seen as more unintelligent or violence prone than white children.
Some of the strongest levels of negative stereotyping reported by white adults working with children were reported toward teenagers, with black teenagers and Native Americans close to ten times more likely to be considered lazy than white adults. Black and Hispanic/Latinx teens were between one and a half to two times more likely to be considered violence-prone and unintelligent than white adults and white teens.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt.html
The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt is a book I've read that helps me understand why people can't agree.
Molly
I thought the Stop and shame article was pretty harsh to Riley and Steele. You could make that same argument about a liberal black author, that their opinions don’t matter because the circumstances of their childhood don’t match x, y or z.
Molly
The Righteous Mind
1. People do not get leniency because of their race... They get leniency because they show remorse, they promise to improve, their parent(s) show up and promise to follow through, a lawyer shows up when appropriate to ensure the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed.
It is unfortunate that not every child has engaged, invested and capable parent(s).
2. If Black drivers are pulled over more often and most police officers are good people just trying to keep their community safe... Other than racism, what other reasons make sense?
3. No gangs, no bullets, no other... Fewer police, less over sight and fewer arrests... No one gets "off the hook", no one is watching in that safe low crime little community... You live in a gang invested area, don't walk around with drugs on you.
4. Unfortunately the research that I linked to previously does indicate that children raised in poor and stressful homes can lack impulse control, lack normal memory capacity, etc.
I'll try to get to that research later...
The problem with this discussion is the "noise." Blacks are disproportionately represented among the poor, murder victims and assailants, unwed motherhood, criminal apprehensions, poor academic performance and school dropouts, illegal drug use and drug crime, to have AIDS or die of asthma. What portion of each of these statistics is caused by racism? What portion of each would be eliminated if we just get white people to admit their racism?
"If Black drivers are pulled over more often and most police officers are good people just trying to keep their community safe... Other than racism, what other reasons make sense?"
This is where implicit bias shows up.
"No one gets "off the hook","
This is a joke, right? You're the one who always talks about people making "good decisions". We know that drug use rates are essentially equal across the races, yet one race gets punished more for it. Somebody is getting off the hook just by basic definition.
Jerry, Pretty much agree.
Sean,
I assume "implicit bias" is otherwise known as watching for situations that have historically caused concern or problems. My black Ethiopian friend being pulled over as he was driving slowly at night looking for a house in the outer north suburbs. He says the officer was polite and friendly, but definitely making sure he was not a burglar.
No police needed in safe community, no arrests...
Lots of police in unsafe community, more arrests...
This is not a race issue...
"I assume "implicit bias" is otherwise known as watching for situations that have historically caused concern or problems. "
Implicit bias refers to an unconscious effect on one's attitudes or behavior. Harvard has devised a famous test that offers a view of whether it's something you might have.
"No police needed in safe community, no arrests..."
Drug possession and usage is a crime, is it not? If we're suggesting it's of little urgency to actually police, then maybe it shouldn't be a crime,
But they are crimes.
And when police patrol neighborhoods.
They find people violating laws.
Do you want to stop police from patrolling high crime neighborhoods?
Do you want the police to overlook people violating the law?
By the way, my test results aligned with what you would think they are.
"Here is your result: Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for European Americans over African Americans.
Your result is described as an "Automatic preference for African Americans over European Americans" if you were faster responding when African Americans and Good are assigned to the same response key than when European Americans and Good were classified with the same key. Your score is described as an "Automatic preference for European Americans over African Americans" if the opposite occurred.
Your automatic preference may be described as "slight", "moderate", "strong", or "no preference". This indicates the strength of your automatic preference.
The IAT requires a certain number of correct responses in order to get results. If you made too many errors while completing the test you will get the feedback that there were too many errors to determine a result.
Note that your IAT result is based only on the categorization task and not on the questions that you answered.
"But they are crimes."
Yes, they are. But we're not arresting people in Wayzata for the same crime at the same rate as we are in Minneapolis. You think that's just dandy. But it has a very real impact in the real world. The pot-smoking Wayzata kid who never gets arrested goes on with his life with no consequences even though he's just as guilty of making a bad decision as the Minneapolis kid who now has this on his record. So it's not at all about who's making the virtuous decisions and who's got the good parents and who's got their pants pulled up to the appropriate level, is it?
Didn't your parents ever tell you that life just is not fair sometimes...
People in poor crime ridden communities are watched closely, this is not racism... This is common sense...
Or do you think we should spend more policing Wayzata just to see if we can attain equal outcomes?
And that is why proposed solution focuses on parent quality...
"And that is why proposed solution focuses on parent quality..."
But why? The "good" parents in Wayzata have kids that use drugs at the same rate as the "bad" parents in Minneapolis.
<a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3410945/>In fact, some studies show higher rates of binge drinking and marijuana use among richer families and families where the parents have higher levels of education.</a>
It's not all about the things you focus on. If you want to truly solve this problem, addressing systematic racism is going to have to be a component of the fix.
Here's the link I messed up.
Or maybe this is more accurate
"Some reasons for the prevalence of opioid abuse and overdose among the poverty stricken may be that they have a lack of education about the dangers of opioid abuse, they are possibly self-medicating for other undiagnosed mental health issues, and they have limited access to drug treatment facilities."
I have no doubt that teens from all income levels experiment, however question is with what and are they more likely to get addicted.
Or this one
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